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muslimapoclyptc  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote muslimapoclyptc Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2006 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by steady

muslim,

your words ...

"I thought it was pretty obvious he was only referring to those who believe in the story to begin with" ....

Do you mean he's saying that .... most people who believe in Adam... believe in Adam ?

That means nothing ... The guy you quote is a doctor apparently .. I thought he would be above using such a tautism .. still some of the Idiotic stuff you guys quote form Dr Buccaille and Dr Naik etc ... nothing should surprise me ...

this is a pretty daft start isn't it .. four sentences in and i found a tautism (or an intentional misdirection) ...   If this was a CV the guy would not have got the job now would he ?

Look mate ... I'm here and you know I'm here. You know I'm gonna read what you put carefully when it's about creation/evolution .. or any science really ...

If there are mistakes or deciets .. I will pick up on them .. and point them out ... these are the rules of the game ...

...  ...

I won't apologise for being critical .... and you won't apologise for cutting and pasting the same old pages ...

So, what's next ... got anything from Harun Yahya you want me to slap around for you  ?


First of all,
the author is simply saying that most of those Jews and Christians who already believe in Adam, believe he is the first rational, intelligent, mortal creation God created. As this article simply points out, Islam states that there were others before Adam. What's so hard to understand about this?

Second, this article is about the Islamic perspective of creation, not necessarily about finding ways in which it and secular science compliment each other. I don't care to prove Islam through science to an atheist. That's not my area of interest. My interest is Islamic cosmology and eschatology. Posting things from Harun Yahya here would be meaningless, as most Muslims and non-Muslims already know about his works, and have already formed their opinions about him.

How much do think we would care if you threw one of your boring, scientific articles at us? I don't think most of us would read it. I certainly wouldn't .

I posted, and linked to, this article, because I'm sure a good deal of Muslims, certainly most, if not all, non-Muslims, are probably unaware of these aspects of the Islamic version of creation.

I also don't what "same old pages" I've copied and pasted with regards to this. I simply copied and pasted the introductory paragraph, and linked to the rest. A lot of people do that, so people can have some idea what it's about.



Edited by muslimapoclyptc - 28 April 2006 at 9:45pm
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Kayyam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kayyam Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:13pm
Steady

Originally posted by muslimapoclyptc

Islam has its own point of view, and the Quran and Hadith has hinted to the issue in several verses..."

As I said: hinted is the operative word. This is one of those those fellows who takes a couple of poetic allegorical verses and reads a whole lot into them.

Islam has no "point of view" on creation. It is abundantly clear that Adam was just a story - having nothing to do with where we actually came from. The Koran is less demanding than the Bible of a literalistic view of Adam.

Kayyam
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sammy  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sammy Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:16pm


what do u mean by 'Adam was just a story'??@kayyam



Edited by sammy - 28 April 2006 at 11:18pm
A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM
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muslimapoclyptc  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote muslimapoclyptc Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by KORUM

Hinn, Bann, Tamm, Rimm


iv never heard of them who or what are they?
sorry muslim apocolyptic i didnt take that all in, i guess i wasnt paying enough attention...aplogies.


They are, like the Jinn, beings that were created before Adam, with free will that live on Earth, each succeeding the other, until we arrived at us, succeeding the jinn.
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muslimapoclyptc  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote muslimapoclyptc Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2006 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by Kayyam


As I said: hinted is the operative word. This is one of those those fellows who takes a couple of poetic allegorical verses and reads a whole lot into them.

Islam has no "point of view" on creation. It is abundantly clear that Adam was just a story - having nothing to do with where we actually came from. The Koran is less demanding than the Bible of a literalistic view of Adam.

Kayyam


He also mentions the hadeeths, so there's more to it than just taking a few allegorical verses from the Qur'an and reading a lot into them. I see you like to add your own tafsirs of the Qur'an, when it says nothing about it being "just a story".


Edited by muslimapoclyptc - 28 April 2006 at 11:28pm
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Kayyam  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Kayyam Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2006 at 5:07pm
Well it must be "just a story". That is the only explanation considering the sheer abundance of evidence for evolutionary origins. So any Tafsir that supports an instantaneous creation of humans is wrong - not on grounds of Islamic scholarship - but on grounds of empiricism.

Not even evangelical Christians from the Bible Belt dispute evolution if you get right down to it. They dispute the process of natural selection, but they admit that we came from monkeys.

Kayyam
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muslimapoclyptc  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote muslimapoclyptc Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by Kayyam

Well it must be "just a story". That is the only explanation considering the sheer abundance of evidence for evolutionary origins. So any Tafsir that supports an instantaneous creation of humans is wrong - not on grounds of Islamic scholarship - but on grounds of empiricism.

Not even evangelical Christians from the Bible Belt dispute evolution if you get right down to it. They dispute the process of natural selection, but they admit that we came from monkeys.

Kayyam


So temporal, transient scientific theories have more value than what is clearly and plainly stated in the Qur'an to you?

Also, man didn't evolve from monkeys. What the modern scientific theory states, is that man and other primates evolved from a common ancestor.


Edited by muslimapoclyptc - 01 May 2006 at 8:47pm
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steady
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote steady Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 9:00pm

"clearly and plainly stated in the Qur'an"

I think not ... you can't agree on the interpretation until I've told you the facts of the matter ...

I told you ... it is just vague enough to mean anything you want it to most of the time ...

You read a scientific publication .. you should be in no doubt what the author meant.

Where does it say in the Qura'an that we didn't evolve anyway ... ?

Please show me the quote muslimapocalyptic

To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake
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steady
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote steady Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 9:26pm

Alwaqt ...

That's THREE whole scientists .. blimey that's almost enough for doubles ...

anyone for tennis

To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake
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antoine13562000  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote antoine13562000 Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 9:43pm

I clicked on the link and read the article at the beginning of this topic.  Some of what I read makes sense.

The traditional evolution has never made sense to me, the genetic code in even the simplest organism contains enough information to fill a small library, and even if even one piece of it is wroung, the whole thing fails.

Scientist want to believe that through scientific advances, they can create life in a lab out of a warm soup of methane and random carbon particles and what not.

The simplest things aren't just going to create themselves randomly.

If you have a pile of logs, they can sit there for twenty trillion, twenty quadrillion years, four hundred sextillion years, or whatever, there is no way those logs are going to randomly assemble themselves into becoming a chair, a table, or anything else.

In order for a chair, a table, or anything else to be made, there has to be a blueprint, machinery to cut the wood into pieces of just the right shapes and sizes to be assembled into the piece of furniture, and you need to have a team of workers with the right skills to get all this done.

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sammy  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sammy Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:01pm
kayyam

what do you have to say about the conception of Prophet Isa pbuh, do u believe tht thts a 'story' too??
because if u believe tht Prophet Adam pbuh and Isa pbuh were just 'stories' then its obvious u dnt believe in the Qu'ran or tht its the word of Allah swt....correct??
A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM
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TwoHeadedEd  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote TwoHeadedEd Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:09pm

I'm actually a little confused as to what the problem with evolution is, and the variation of responses here doesn't really help me, but steady and muslimapoclyptc seems to be on the ball so i'll just post this link because i like it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html

Sample:

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

If the quran can follow the facts, then woohoo islam, but remember you're having to fit the quran around the facts, the facts don't fit into the quran. It's all theory based on the facts, no different to Darwin, you just have to choose up sides and hope you're proved right.

If you're not entirely satisfied then company policy states that i hate you.
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sammy  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sammy Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by TwoHeadedEd

I'm actually a little confused as to what the problem with evolution is, and the variation of responses here doesn't really help me, but steady and muslimapoclyptc seems to be on the ball so i'll just post this link because i like it.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-evolution.html

Sample:

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

If the quran can follow the facts, then woohoo islam, but remember you're having to fit the quran around the facts, the facts don't fit into the quran. It's all theory based on the facts, no different to Darwin, you just have to choose up sides and hope you're proved right.



What is in the Qu'ran is fact , the Qu'ran doesnt need to fit around any other so called facts , and as a muslim , i believe the word of Allah swt rather than tht of a mere human who was created by him
A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM
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sammy  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote sammy Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2006 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by alwaqt

sammy,

Very good point. Kayyam should be reminded of this Ayah:

Surah 3: verse 59

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

 



thnx bro, or is it sis??
A MISCHIEF MAKER WILL NOT ENTER PARADISE, SAHIH BUKHARI , MUSLIM
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