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Holly  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Holly Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2006 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by Faaz

Capitalism is the religion of America, The almighty Dollor is GOD, there is no place for any other religion or philosophy in this country, this nation is controlled by them and all laws are made to protect and promote the top 1% of the elite population. every one else are the worker bees for the soul purpose of serving the elite, whether you like it or not you are doing it, you pay for their lifestyle. the only saving grace is some of them are generous enough to let you enjoy a little bit and make you feel good by picking your political representatives. Here is how you pay:
1. Income Tax
2. Sales tax
3. Energy Tax
4. Property tax and other hidden taxes
5. Interest.- This is the big one.
Every one in America irrespective of thier religious, political or ethinic background pays interest, there is not a single person who can claim in the 99% group of Americans that He/she has not paid interest atleast one time in thier life from birth to death.
 
Faaz
 
YES Faaz, and there is much more the poor can not get to work with no babysitter/transportation, nor childcare. I mean their are many examples.
 
     Rhoda Amy is as American or more so than you. I think she pointed us out because it is what we live, see and breathe.
 
 
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Holly  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Holly Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2006 at 6:32pm
[/QUOTE]

Im  a little confused with your question.
But let me answer it like this.
There is a cultural war going on in America.This war has been going on for some time. This war has on one side those that would take prayer out of school, the ten commandments out of the court house and the continuing of taking God out of every situation against those that w=ant to keep God in.
There is a large number of Americans whose religion is secular humanism a large number of Americans who are conservative Christian, there are those whose religion is the dollar. All these  forces conflict and engage in a national debate on issues on what direction the country goes.
As for the war, It is the role of  the government to defend and protect its citizens. You will disagree but it is my belief and many others belief that this administration is doing just that.
[/QUOTE]
 
We don't disagree, we,.... well I should say I disagree with my president and his values or lack thereof. But I must disagree with what you stated about dollar being a religion and I THINK Amy might have been referring to that....you know the whole concept of Religion taking the backseat in a lot of out lives, A LOT OF OUR LIVES


Edited by Holly - 16 July 2006 at 6:33pm
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Omenaka  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Omenaka Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2006 at 7:00pm
Money has NOTHING to do with God.
God does not like the stuff.
Love Omenaka
Forgive the Body and love the soul, For the soul is Gods Eternal child, your Brother. And my religion is LOVE, not Other.
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whatever_girl  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote whatever_girl Replybullet Posted: 16 July 2006 at 7:54pm
Omenaka...it's actually the love of money (greed) that God dislikes. Money is essential for us to live and trade...God understands this.
"The love of money is the root of all evil." is the quote...not just money, in general.
 
But, I know what you meant, Omenaka. LOLBig smile
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who is not outdone in generosity.
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 9:47am
Originally posted by SolaChristo

Im  a little confused with your question.
But let me answer it like this.

There is a cultural war going on in America.This war has been going on for some time. This war has on one side those that would take prayer out of school, the ten commandments out of the court house and the continuing of taking God out of every situation against those that w=ant to keep God in.

There is a large number of Americans whose religion is secular humanism a large number of Americans who are conservative Christian, there are those whose religion is the dollar. All these  forces conflict and engage in a national debate on issues on what direction the country goes.

As for the war, It is the role of  the government to defend and protect its citizens. You will disagree but it is my belief and many others belief that this administration is doing just that.
 
Hi Don, thanks for your input. I think you made a good point, and offered a good answer to the question. If there is a war, and I think that is an acceptable analogy for the current disagreements over national policy, then it is being fought by small groups. Wars aren't fought by the general population, and this cultural war is no exception. The majority is sitting somewhere in the middle watching the other sides fight over who can win them. So while these forces you identified (bold, above) are fighting each other, and are each comprised of sizable groups, none clearly holds the majority.
 
It's most likely to me that the majority can fall in some category that is a mish-mash of the above, in terms of values. That is, some clearly conservative Christian values, with secular humanist exceptions, occasionally overpowered by greed and want of wealth.
 
For example, the hardest Christian conservative would, in my mind, place family of utmost priority, but I'd think secular humanists would take a more self-centered approach, I should get what I want, while seeing family as the best option. The dollar person would reject family, in my mind, seeking only to satisfy his desire for wealth and family would obstruct his path. 
 
I'm trying to figure out what the majority opinion would be on many issues like the one above.


Edited by Aviatrix - 17 July 2006 at 9:49am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 9:52am
Why shouldn't we be able to stand up and say what's wrong with America, if the intent is only to change it to what's right with America. Didn't Jefferson say that dissent is the best form of patriotism? Intelligent Americans should be the first to admit that this country is flawed, and should stand on the frontlines to criticize the mistakes that have been made and that currently dominate our lives. There should be more here to be proud of than afraid of or embarassed about. Some of us are in a capacity to change that, and those of us who are should.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Rhoda Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 11:51am
I'm guessing here, but I suspect that American is ALREADY the most self-critical country on earth.

 We are more than able to stand up and say what's wrong with America and Americans.

 Standing up and saying what's right  brands the speaker as a thoughtless fool, easily led by the media  and the consumer culture.

But since the "frontlines" are already so crowded with people explaining to us dolts that the country is flawed, I guess I'll stand in back and fulfill the traditional role of loyal opposition.

Because effective change cannot occur when only certain opinions are considered.

tiny voice: there is more here to be proud of than afraid or embarrassed about.

(if it bothers anyone to get a tax writeoff for charitable giving, the IRS will not punish you if you just don't mention that you've so given)
No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up. (Lily Tomlin)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 12:02pm

You can stand where ever you want, Rhoda.

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Rhoda  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Rhoda Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 12:30pm
SmileThenkew. Do you agree that the US is the most self-critical country on earth?
No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up. (Lily Tomlin)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Peter40 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 12:59pm
I would say that if you had to pick one thing and Call it a "Religon" in America, it would be "Freedom".
 
In our view a country is not defined by a single faith, but an ideal.
 
Sure there are people here that are slaves to money, immoral, unfair, corrupt, liars, thieves, and morally corrupt.
 
I submit that 80-90% are none of those things, just good honest hard working people, and that there are bad people in ALL countries and among ALL Religons.  We just air our dirty laundry for all to see.
 
Please do NOT assume that because America is not perfect, that America is wrong in it's beliefs.  I don't see people at the borders lining up to leave.
 
I would not want to live in ANY country with a single absolute authority.
 
"Power Corrupts, Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely"---Author Unknown
 
Peace!
Peter
I wish for true Peace
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 1:49pm
Is America wrong in its beliefs? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's wrong in its actions, which means the possibility has arisen that its beliefs are questionable. Therefore, I endeavor to question them.
 
So is this country defined by the ideal of "freedom?" Let's get specific, if this is the case, clearly, freedom from what?
 
Freedom from... poverty?
Freedom from... obligations of other nations?
Freedom from... threats of other nations?
Freedom from... a single set of moral codes?
 
I mean you could say that there is an ideal of freedom, but it is an ideal that I don't think the country is living up to, or expects other countries to share. That is, if America thinks democracy is best, that's fine--Americans chose it, and they had the freedom to do so. But not every nation may want democracy... is it fair for the USA to force it on them?
 
Freedom from poverty is another way of describing wealth. That is the American Dream, isn't it? An ideal of wealth?
 
Power corrupts... so is it wise to aspire to be the most powerful nation in the world? Is that our ideal? Is that freedom? Never having to worry about domination by other powers, because they have all been oppressed by us? When I hear the war cry for Iran, or N. Korea, that's the impression I get, that Americans think they are entitled to oppress other nations of the world and somehow it is just.
 
If power corrupts, then the most powerful nation is also the most corrupt.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Peter40 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 2:07pm
 
I thought I might quote the OP to keep myself on track.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Let's stereotype...
 
I don't like sterotypes, especially when looking at country of 300,000,000 people.  I don't like sterotypes about Muslims either.
 
If America in general, by which I mean the majority, were classified into one group, with one overpowering religious identity, what would it be? Does the American population follow, as a general rule, the practices of any particular religion?
 
A majority of Americans consider themselves Christian in one way or another, belonging to some Christian denomination.  I believe Roman Catholics to be the largest single group, but there are thousands of protestant groups that believe in the Divinity of Jesus.  We do have many Muslims, Jews, Hindews, Mormans, Athiest, even Scientologists openly practicing in America.
 
I think it doesn't. I'm guessing that if you sample most Americans, you'll find a belief in God. That rules out atheism. But now you're probably figuring that most Americans identify themselves as Christians, yet I ask: can they be identified as Christians by the rest of the world?
 
 
I think the answer is no. I don't think that the majority population of this country considers itself "Christian" enough to attend church every Sunday, even on major religious holidays (Easter, Christmas). Of course it varies between the seas, with some communities clinging more strongly to their religious heritage than others.
 
I disagree, I think a majority of the American population does attend at least on major holidays.  The onset of Protestantism tends to lead people away from attending weekly or daily offical services, for a "personal relationship" that does not need a central Religon.  In Rual areas, (More Americans live in smaller towns than major cities) Church attendance by ALL faiths is much higher. 
 
I also don't think the majority population of this country considers itself Christian enough to uphold the most basic tenets of the religion. I've heard (and would not like this disputed in this particular thread please) that the 10 Commandments can be basically summarized by another, which is to love God, and to love Him by loving others. This ought to be recognized as a fundamental principle of Christianity, right? Love your enemies? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you? If you love me (Jesus) keep my commandments?
 
I think there may be some question as to if the majority of Americans attend services, however saying that a majority of Americans do not uphold the basic tenets of religon is completely WRONG.  People who hate America will point to isolated instances of hate or whatever, and use these to try to paint all or a Majority of Americans into one Group that fits the stero-type that they are trying to give to us.  Even most Athiests believe in the "Gloden Rule", "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"  It HAS to be this way for a Democracy to exist.  If a majority, (or even a significant minority) are not hard working, honest people, it would colapse into a Dictatorship.
 
So is it? I want to examine the majority public opinion based on public policy. The actions of the governments, while not representative of individual opinions are nevertheless a reflection of the majority's will. Essentially, the "job" of political leaders who by and large are selected by the populations they represent, is dependent upon their ability to satisfy that group. Simply, then, the choices made by "elected officials" ought to be representative of the choices which would be made by the people who elect them.
 
Furthermore, the choices made by the collective government ought to reflect the choices which would be made by the individuals in a purely democratic state. So when one person, elected by the general population, chooses favorites among other nations, one would expect that the choice of favoritism would resound with the nation at large. That is, we expect that he made his decision based on the collective opinion of the people whom he represents.
 
When a group of people enact policies in this country that apply to the entire population, one would expect that, this being a representative democracy, the policies would be favored by at least the majority.
 
So, when the country at large institutes policies that are inherently injust, and cites religion as the primary basis for those policies, when the nation claims to be rooted in religion, and to rely on religion for guidance, it is necessary to ask, what that religion actually is!
 
I think you have assumed to many times, while actually a good points, you can only assume on top of assumption so far.  Religon is not the primary basis for policies, freedom of Religon is one of the cornerstones of out Country, and I would assume that most leaders act in a way so they don't believe that they are acting against their faith.  Plesae remember that Americans keep a seperation of Church and state, there in NO religon that sets public policy, this is as I believe it should be.
 
When the government continues to play a game with the world that is in fact in opposition to the most basic tenets of the religion to which it claims to adhere, either the government is lying, or the religion is not what it claims to be!
 
I am not sure what game you are talking about, many disagree with actions of the U.S. Government.  I am not sure what policy is in opposition to the basic tenets of whatever Religon you are Sterotyping the US to?  If you want to find out what Catholics believe, it is simple, read the Catacism.  It is in black and white, and all Catholics should follow it's teachings.  I wish that there was such a book for all Muslims, in black and white, "this is always good, and this is always bad"  Some Islamic groups have charters, like Hesbloah, I do pray for them because by their charter, they are at war with me all the time and there is no chance for negotiation.
 
I am getting the impression that you are talking about America's support for Israel, or the War in Iraq.  If that is what you are getting to, these are very complex issues, and I think could easily be solved if the average American understood that the majority of Muslims do want Peace.  When we see Muslims blowing themselves up, and read what is on the Hamas, and Hesbolah web-sites, and see Muslims flying airliners into buildings, it is hard to convince average Americans that there is Peace in Islam.
 
What is the religion of America?
 
No matter how much groups want to hate America, and label us as this or that, the fact that America stands for freedom and justice more than any religon.
 
Now that I have waved the flag, I will aslo be the first to admit that we have made mistakes in the past (and present), I will also say that there is a lot af America Hate out there that in one-sided and completely ignores all of the good things that America and americans do around the world.
 
 If you want to know what the "average" american is worried about, it is taking care of their family, living in peace, and enjoying a normal life, just like average Isralies, average Muslims, average Hindus, Average Athiest, etc.
 
"Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happyness"
 
Aviatrix, this is a good question, and thank you for asking and searching.  One day we will all learn to understand and respect each other's differences and work together for Peace and Justice for all people.
 
My Prayers today are for all of the people in the current conflits in the Mid-East.
 
Peace!
Peter
I wish for true Peace
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Peter40 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 2:33pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Is America wrong in its beliefs? Maybe, maybe not. I think it's wrong in its actions, which means the possibility has arisen that its beliefs are questionable. Therefore, I endeavor to question them.
 
I figured you thought America is wrong in it's actions. I would hope that you continue to find answers about what American really is, the Good as well as the bad that you hear about.  Just like us Christians, hearing about the bad Muslims and not the good, don't assume that all Americans are bad, or that all of the policies of America are bad.
 
So is this country defined by the ideal of "freedom?" Let's get specific, if this is the case, clearly, freedom from what?
 
Freedom from... poverty?
Freedom from... obligations of other nations?
Freedom from... threats of other nations?
Freedom from... a single set of moral codes?
 
It is not necessairly Freedom from anything, just freedom.  But I agree with those.
 
I mean you could say that there is an ideal of freedom, but it is an ideal that I don't think the country is living up to, or expects other countries to share. That is, if America thinks democracy is best, that's fine--Americans chose it, and they had the freedom to do so. But not every nation may want democracy... is it fair for the USA to force it on them?
 
By force them, what is wrong with people of a country choosing their own destiny?  How can you have Freedom with out it?  If a small group of people, take over a country from within and rule with an iron fist and terror, killing people that don't agree with it's rules.  Is that good?  Is that acceptable?  Basic human rights.  Now if you are asking should the US go to war just to force Democracy on a country, Americans will say NO.  We would think it our duty to try to help those who cannot help themselves, like in Dafour Sudan, we should do much more to help the 4,000,000 displaced and starving people there, but not through invasion, through deplomacy, hopefully the rest of the world will agree.
 
Freedom from poverty is another way of describing wealth. That is the American Dream, isn't it? An ideal of wealth?
 
SOME americans have money as their God.  I am sure some Muslims do as well.  The American Dream is different for every American, the American Dream is to be able to Dream.
 
Power corrupts... so is it wise to aspire to be the most powerful nation in the world? Is that our ideal? Is that freedom? Never having to worry about domination by other powers, because they have all been oppressed by us? When I hear the war cry for Iran, or N. Korea, that's the impression I get, that Americans think they are entitled to oppress other nations of the world and somehow it is just.
 
I am talking about power within a country.  Does the U.S. really have a "plan" to dominate the rest of the world?  As far as Iran and N. Korea, when Americans hear people want Neuclear Weapons, that are not afraid to use them against us in a pre-emptive attack, yes we get edgy about that.  I know that America is the only country to ever use these weapons in WWII, but I was not alive back then and because of the Devestating potental of these weapons, they can NEVER be used again.  If America Posed a Neuclear threat to any country, don't you think we would have already used them?  N. Korea has it's own people starving and a rich ruler that reportedly has the largest collection of Pornography, does this sound like a sane man that you would want to have a Neuclear missle?
 
I know there is a LOT of anti-American information and many only choose to listen to the bad about America.  Look at the good also before making a decision.  The same way I am looking at what real Muslims think about war and hate, not just the radicals.
 
If power corrupts, then the most powerful nation is also the most corrupt.

To be sure there is corruption within America, it is everywhere, even in Muslim Countries, would you feel safer if the most powerfull country in the world was being ran by a Dictator that was mentally un-balanced?  Who had the power to destroy the world in one push of a button?

 
 
 
 
I wish for true Peace
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 2:40pm
My definition of religion is not limited to "Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc." okay? So when I say religion, I mean creed. The state of North Carolina has added into its non-discrimination legislation the word "creed," that is as an extension to the federal law which specifies "religion" as something that may not be used as a criterion for selecting employees. So when I say religion, I don't mean the religion people claim, but the set of beliefs (creed) to which they adhere in actuality. Far fewer are Christians than claim to be, if you ask me. (Probably why you didn't.)
 
If America stands for justice, why does it tolerate injustice? If America stands for freedom, why does it oppress and condone oppression?
 
If the American "creed" is for "freedom," as suggested above, then the nature of "freedom" must be defined. If it really is the case, "freedom" must be delimited further because obviously particular "freedoms" are certainly not espoused as desirable by this nation. For example, the freedom of a Muslim country to develop nuclear power.
 
If you'd like to correct one of my assumptions, feel free to do so. InshaAllah I'll post some poll data on the typically understood "religious profile" of the USA. It certainly isn't majority Catholic... most Protestant groups are so similar to classify "Protestant" as one group anyway, but the problem here is the religious diversity across the nation and in the political sphere.
 
I'm really trying to figure out what America, as a nation, believes, and why we act the way we do. Yes, middle-eastern conflict (read WAR) is a large motivation for my questions, but also the moral decadence that the USA is leading the world in, with the decay of family oriented values. I really think things are going downhill, Peter, and I also think that if the majority of this country were religious, of any religion, that wouldn't be the case... that we would be sticking to religious traditions. We're not. Not even common traditions like marriage.
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