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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Peter40

 
By force them, what is wrong with people of a country choosing their own destiny?  How can you have Freedom with out it?  If a small group of people, take over a country from within and rule with an iron fist and terror, killing people that don't agree with it's rules.  Is that good?  Is that acceptable?  Basic human rights.  Now if you are asking should the US go to war just to force Democracy on a country, Americans will say NO.  We would think it our duty to try to help those who cannot help themselves, like in Dafour Sudan, we should do much more to help the 4,000,000 displaced and starving people there, but not through invasion, through deplomacy, hopefully the rest of the world will agree.
 
Freedom from poverty is another way of describing wealth. That is the American Dream, isn't it? An ideal of wealth?
 
SOME americans have money as their God.  I am sure some Muslims do as well.  The American Dream is different for every American, the American Dream is to be able to Dream.
 
Power corrupts... so is it wise to aspire to be the most powerful nation in the world? Is that our ideal? Is that freedom? Never having to worry about domination by other powers, because they have all been oppressed by us? When I hear the war cry for Iran, or N. Korea, that's the impression I get, that Americans think they are entitled to oppress other nations of the world and somehow it is just.
 
I am talking about power within a country.  Does the U.S. really have a "plan" to dominate the rest of the world?  As far as Iran and N. Korea, when Americans hear people want Neuclear Weapons, that are not afraid to use them against us in a pre-emptive attack, yes we get edgy about that.  I know that America is the only country to ever use these weapons in WWII, but I was not alive back then and because of the Devestating potental of these weapons, they can NEVER be used again.  If America Posed a Neuclear threat to any country, don't you think we would have already used them?  N. Korea has it's own people starving and a rich ruler that reportedly has the largest collection of Pornography, does this sound like a sane man that you would want to have a Neuclear missle?
 
I know there is a LOT of anti-American information and many only choose to listen to the bad about America.  Look at the good also before making a decision.  The same way I am looking at what real Muslims think about war and hate, not just the radicals.
 
If power corrupts, then the most powerful nation is also the most corrupt.

To be sure there is corruption within America, it is everywhere, even in Muslim Countries, would you feel safer if the most powerfull country in the world was being ran by a Dictator that was mentally un-balanced?  Who had the power to destroy the world in one push of a button?

 
Let's see... if one country blazes into another with tanks, planes, guns, and bombs to topple the current government and institute another, how does that represent choice on behalf of the people? How does that represent their freedom? You said, "Now if you are asking should the US go to war just to force Democracy on a country, Americans will say NO. " But that's what has happened... Unhappy That's what happened, while Darfur waits...
 
You're right, some "Muslims" have money as their god. But then again, if money is their god, they aren't really Muslims, by definition? Allahu alim.
 
You can complain about dictators if you like. I can't help but think there isn't much nobility in a government that wants to keep nuclear weapons to prevent anyone else from obtaining them. Do you like that idea? If they're never going to be used again, why keep them?
 
I see a lot of good in America, but this post isn't really about that. I really want to figure out what the beliefs are of Americans that they act the way they do.


Edited by Aviatrix - 17 July 2006 at 3:05pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:05pm
Gallup poll, 2years old, longitudinal--notice the shrinking Christian majorities!  
 

"What is your religious preference: Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish, or an Orthodox religion, such as the Greek or Russian Orthodox Church?"

.

    5/04 2000 1990 1980 1970
  % % % % %
Protestant 50 52 56 61 65
Christian (non-specific) 9 5 n/a n/a n/a
Catholic 23 25 25 28 26
Jewish 2 2 2 2 3
Orthodox 1 1 1 1 -
Mormon 1 2 1 n/a n/a
Other specific 3 4 4 1 2
None 10 8 9 7 3
Undesignated 1 2 2 - -


Edited by Aviatrix - 17 July 2006 at 3:07pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Peter40 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:06pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

My definition of religion is not limited to "Hindu, Christian, Muslim, etc." okay? So when I say religion, I mean creed. The state of North Carolina has added into its non-discrimination legislation the word "creed," that is as an extension to the federal law which specifies "religion" as something that may not be used as a criterion for selecting employees. So when I say religion, I don't mean the religion people claim, but the set of beliefs (creed) to which they adhere in actuality. Far fewer are Christians than claim to be, if you ask me. (Probably why you didn't.)
 
I agree, I think that is true of ALL faiths,I think that there are far fewer Christians and Muslims, etc. than claim to be, but it is not my place or ability to judge the hearts of other men.
 
If America stands for justice, why does it tolerate injustice? If America stands for freedom, why does it oppress and condone oppression?
 
I think you have to look at specific cases.  Over the years America has been on the wrong side many times, just as we as Christians, and Muslims have sinned ourselves, America is not perfect either.
 
If the American "creed" is for "freedom," as suggested above, then the nature of "freedom" must be defined. If it really is the case, "freedom" must be delimited further because obviously particular "freedoms" are certainly not espoused as desirable by this nation. For example, the freedom of a Muslim country to develop nuclear power.
 
Americans have no arguments to Iran having Neuclear power, Just Neuclear weapons.  The only the world will know they don't have weapons or are not making them would be for Iran to allow international inspectors back into the country, this is the sticking point.
 
If you'd like to correct one of my assumptions, feel free to do so. InshaAllah I'll post some poll data on the typically understood "religious profile" of the USA. It certainly isn't majority Catholic... most Protestant groups are so similar to classify "Protestant" as one group anyway, but the problem here is the religious diversity across the nation and in the political sphere.
 
I never said the majority of americans are Catholic, I said that I believe that Catholics are the largest singel Christian group.  We do NOT see religous diversity as a problem.  We do not want ANY religon forcing it's beliefs on others, in our view that would only lead to extreamism.
 
I'm really trying to figure out what America, as a nation, believes, and why we act the way we do. Yes, middle-eastern conflict (read WAR) is a large motivation for my questions, but also the moral decadence that the USA is leading the world in, with the decay of family oriented values. I really think things are going downhill, Peter, and I also think that if the majority of this country were religious, of any religion, that wouldn't be the case... that we would be sticking to religious traditions. We're not. Not even common traditions like marriage.
 
You make a good point, a very good point, I am not sure it is America that is leading the west in this decline though, look at western Europe.....I think that people move to and from faith in all religons, I find the decay of morals in America bad, Abortion is just one example.  However people are free to choose truly free to choose, many do turn back to being faithfull, moral decay is not always a one way trip.  We need to have a faithfull revolution in America (no guns needed) I think it is happening right now.  But forcing everyone to believe in one faith by terror or imprisonment is NOT the way.  The decay of Marriage and family are directly related to our political mistakes allowing abortion and moving away from God.  When people choose faith with 100% free will, there is a true Joy and Peace within them that everyone should feel.
 
I also think that because Americans air all of their Dirty Laundry in the open that most people have a negatively warped view of the morals of Americans.
 
 
Peace to you, Aviatrix!
 
I need to get to work so I can buy that new golden calf next week!
(Just kidding)
 
Peace!
Peter
I wish for true Peace
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Peter40 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Gallup poll, 2years old, longitudinal--notice the shrinking Christian majorities!  
 

"What is your religious preference: Protestant, Roman Catholic, Jewish, or an Orthodox religion, such as the Greek or Russian Orthodox Church?"

.

    5/04 2000 1990 1980 1970
  % % % % %
Protestant 50 52 56 61 65
Christian (non-specific) 9 5 n/a n/a n/a
Catholic 23 25 25 28 26
Jewish 2 2 2 2 3
Orthodox 1 1 1 1 -
Mormon 1 2 1 n/a n/a
Other specific 3 4 4 1 2
None 10 8 9 7 3
Undesignated 1 2 2 - -
 
Looks like us Catholics are hanging in there!
 
Actually the Protestants are made up of MANY different sects that are lumped together by many people (inclucding this poll) but they are not one organized together group.
 
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Peter
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:12pm
Okay, get to work, but I'm gonna keep going inshaAllah. Smile
Originally posted by Peter40

But forcing everyone to believe in one faith by terror or imprisonment is NOT the way. 
 
I never suggested this, and personally hold the opinion that force and belief can't be used together. You can't force anyone to believe anything. Period.
 
You go "Americans" and "Muslims" like there are only two groups. I never really brought up Muslims (except as an example for freedom to develop nuclear power). Western Europe is also decadent, as in the US, perhaps more so. But they don't claim to be as religious as Americans do.
 
So really, still I'm trying to find the American religion, the American creed, that explains American behavior. Big smile
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:14pm
Like I said earlier about Protestants, their beliefs are generally so similar that they need not be further classified. If memory serves, Southern Baptist and Lutheran are the two biggest Protestant groups, but I can look for data on that. Nevertheless, identifying oneself as Methodist or Catholic (or any denomination), generally beliefs and outlooks should be the same, despite minor variances in tradition.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ted CharlotteNC Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:14pm
This site is pretty interesting on different religions:
 
 
My final thought is: You can say you are practitioner of the Holy Church of the Milky Way Bar, don't that doesn't make you sweet.
Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just. - Thomas Jefferson
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:15pm
Another longitudinal Gallup poll... decreasing attendence? (Not really, it looks constant over ~10 years... would prefer more data.)
 

"How often do you attend church or synagogue: at least once a week, almost every week, about once a month, seldom, or never?"

.

  At Least
Once a
Week
Almost
Every
Week
About
Once a
Month
Seldom Never
  % % % % %
5/04 28 14 14 31 12
5/03 33 13 14 27 12
12/02 31 14 18 29 7
5/02 31 11 14 28 16
3/02 34 12 13 28 12
12/01 34 11 15 28 12
6/01 30 11 12 29 18
2/01 30 12 15 29 13
8/00 35 11 15 27 11
3/00 36 11 13 30 10
12/99 36 12 16 28 8
5/99 30 14 18 28 9
6/98 32 13 19 26 9
1/98 32 12 15 30 10
1992 31 9 15 29 16
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by Ted CharlotteNC

My final thought is: You can say you are practitioner of the Holy Church of the Milky Way Bar, don't that doesn't make you sweet.
 
Hug I love you, Ted. Heart
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:17pm

He might take that seriously.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:28pm
Was I not being serious? Ermm
Whatever it takes to get a Milky Way Bar.  
hehe...
 
Okay, another poll, this is from Fox...
 

"Which one of the following is closer to your view? Religion is under attack in America today. Religion has too much influence in America today. The current standing of religion in America is just about right."

.

Under
Attack
Too Much
Influence
About
Right
Unsure  
% % % %  
11/29-30/05 49 17 22 12  

.

"Do you feel like Christianity is under attack in the United States today?"

.

Yes No Unsure    
% % %    
11/29-30/05 59 37 4  


Edited by Aviatrix - 17 July 2006 at 4:45pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 3:31pm
So, it looks like religion is under attack, especially Christianity... That says a lot, actually, about how Americans feel about their policies--I think it shows either that non-religious minorities are taking over and the rest don't like that, or else that the entire country is moving away from religion, and the people who were polled were resistant to that fact? Maybe? Maybe Amy's been on this thread too long today, starting to go bonkers.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Peter40 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 5:31pm
I think you are reading way to much into a single poll.........
 
Peace!
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 17 July 2006 at 5:39pm
Hi Amy,
I personally think that society can achieve a workable set of values for living without religion. Secular laws do protect the population to the greater extent.

I get the feeling your point is that unless our moral code is based on religion then it cant work. I don't believe that.


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