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thejnk  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2006 at 6:49pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah


there is scientific,prediction,historical and literary aspect miracles in the Quran
that no illiterate man from 1400 years ago can bring book like it
that is why we said the Quran is our miracle


    I am only aware of the claim to embryological foreknowledge in the Quran and it is really so weak that it cannot be used to convince any atheist. What are the other historical and scientific miracles you speak of?

Originally posted by mai moslemah


as Allah said:""And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.  ""

(2:23)


    This is an empty challenge. Who will judge if the produced soorah is similar to the ones in the Quran? A muslim?

    Dimitris

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Islamway  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Islamway Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2006 at 8:42pm

Hi
what kind of proofs do you want?
Miracles performed by the prophet (sas)?
Prophecies that came tp pass?
Scientific miracles in Qura'n?

there are also numeric miracles in Qura'n .. I listed some of them Here

As for the prophet's perfection of attributes and manners:Here

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thejnk  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2006 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by Islamway

Hi
what kind of proofs do you want?
Miracles performed by the prophet (sas)?
Prophecies that came tp pass?
Scientific miracles in Qura'n?


    Proofs of the kind that can be employed to convince and atheist/agnostic. Are there any ?

    Dimitris
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2006 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by thejnk

Originally posted by mai moslemah


there is scientific,prediction,historical and literary aspect miracles in the Quran
that no illiterate man from 1400 years ago can bring book like it
that is why we said the Quran is our miracle


    I am only aware of the claim to embryological foreknowledge in the Quran and it is really so weak that it cannot be used to convince any atheist. What are the other historical and scientific miracles you speak of?

Originally posted by mai moslemah


as Allah said:""And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful.  ""

(2:23)


    This is an empty challenge. Who will judge if the produced soorah is similar to the ones in the Quran? A muslim?

    Dimitris


I am only aware of the claim to embryological foreknowledge in the Quran and it is really so weak that it cannot be used to convince any atheist. What are the other historical and scientific miracles you speak of?

that show that u didnt open this thread for learning but for debating
if u reed the article i gave you ,u wouldn't said this sentence"
I am only aware of the claim to embryological foreknowledge in the Quran "

and i dont want to waste my time with you,unless you really want to learn
Quran have many proofs ,because it is for All ages tell the day of judgment and because we are now in age of science and i think that u are interested in science i will give u this link(please take a look on it)
this link of videos for top scientist in the world-non muslims-saying their comments about some verses in Quran
u can watch and listen to this comments
and google to get info about those scientists
click
here

This is an empty challenge. Who will judge if the produced soorah is similar to the ones in the Quran? A muslim?

before u say this empty sentence please,bring a book like it..if no one couldnt through 1400 years ago ,to bring a book (claiming it is from God) with no mistakes...so u will not be able to do the same

if u are interested to learn about other miraculous aspect in the Quran let me know
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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M.Shahin
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.Shahin Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2006 at 10:35pm

Dimitris wrote:

What would you say to an Atheist/Agnostic to convince him of the truth of Islam? Are there any arguments for Islam that appeal to reason or is it like any other religion a faith thing?

    Thanks for your replies.

I would recommend reading a book called The Bible, The Quran and Science by Maurice Bucaille.

I also recently watched a moving called Unlocking the Mystery of Life. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5955663642317205059&q=unlocking+the+mystery+of+life&hl=en

Science is moving at a very rapid pace, and there are many new matters being discovered in science including flaws in the evolutionary theory. Kenyon, the author of Chemical Predestination, a book that heralded a significant argument for the theory that life started in the primordial soup, has found flaws in his own theory because evolution is unable to explain the complex formation of DNA and proteins. He now believes in intelligent design.

In fact, there are many people in the scientific community that are leaving behind evolution in favor of intelligent design, which the video shows. The program also discusses the flagellum of a cell, and how the evolutionary theory can't explain it.

And last, I would like to pose some questions for thought that was actually posed to me before.

Suppose that we have a 1953 Chevy Bel Air before us (just imagine for a second). It is maroon and white Convertible with the dice and fender skirts...okay I won't go on with the description, this is actually my dream car.

We will acknowledge when looking at the Bel Air, that someone created this car. The same goes for a house, a book, a piano concerto, etc. We all acknowledge that these things have creators. We will also acknowledge that the computer that we are using to participate on this forum, and the keyboard we are using to type out our thoughts was also created by someone. We already know that Shakespeare wrote Hamlet, that DaVinci painted Mona Lisa, that Beethoven composed the 5th symphony.

So how is it that when we look at ourselves, the sky, the moon, the planets, the trees, the flowers, the oceans, etc, that some come to the conclusion that these complex structures, which are much more sophisticated than a car or a book, somehow came about by chance...that essentially they created themselves without a creator.

For me it doesn't make sense, but I have argued this point before with atheists, and to them it makes sense. When I look at the world, I see patterns in everything. Everything around us has been created by someone, and I believe it is the same for human beings. Someone created us.

Just because we cannot see our Creator, does not mean God doesn't exist. Most of us have never seen our own brain, heart, lungs, etc. We cannot see the air, we cannot see gravity, we cannot see the wars of the past, we cannot see Shakespeare or Beethoven, but we know that these things exist or existed at one period.

For someone to tell me that the earth just came together without a creator, is like telling me that an engine, transmission, leather, rubber, and metal came together one evening in a garage to become a car. It is like telling me that some letters of the alphabet fell together to write Hamlet.

Again, many atheists have argued with me, that they can't believe because they can't see God. Is that enough of an argument to say that He can't exist? Does God have to follow what we as human beings demand of Him? Are we saying that essentially we are gods ourselves?

Because everyone will say that God has to come to them in a different way for them to believe. And God says in the Quran that even if he brought down a something from heaven, they still would not believe.

They wouldn't believe because they would call it magic or an illusion of the mind. So if even God were to reveal Himself to us, some of us still wouldn't believe.

When I asked an atheist, why didn't wonder who created a tree, he told me he did not really care to know whether there was a creator or not. He enjoyed the tree for what it is. And when I posed the above questions to him, he argued that it still didn't prove there was a creator.

So you are probably not going to find this post helpful, but I pose it anyway to give it a try.

In the end, no matter how many things you want to read or see that can prove a Creator, you have to decide for yourself whether you want to believe or not.


He erected heaven and established the balance, so that you would not trangress the balance. (The Holy Quran) http://ageofjahiliyah.blogspot.com/
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2006 at 10:53pm
well said bro shahin
Allah said:
""I called them not to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth, nor (even) their own creation: nor is it for helpers such as Me to take as lead (men) astray! ""(18:51)

But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Nabil  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nabil Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 12:31am
Peace,

I don't believe in Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, The Boogie Man, Big Foot, or The Lock Ness Monster.

So I don't discuss them.

Since an atheist doesn't believe in God the issue should never be raised by them.

Most atheists have an insatiable appetite for delusion that I don't share with them so we find no platform for discussion.

"And who is more astray than one who invokes besides Allah, such as will not answer him on the Day of Judgment, and who (in fact) are unconscious of their call (to them)"? (Quran46:5)


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thejnk  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 12:54am

     Considering the "scientific miracles" in the Quran. They are so vague ambiguous and inaccurate that they cannot be used to convince anyone least of all an atheist.

    I have made the effort of reading and replying to some of them that were in the url that mai moslemah provided:

Quran on Human Embryonic Development

What the  Quran says:

023.012 Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay); Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed; Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; then we made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; then we developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!

How things really are:

Man is not made of clay. Organic matter in no way resembles clay. In the beginning there is sperm *and* an egg. Ancient people were unaware of the female egg because they could no see it. They all made the erroneous assumption that only the sperm is required to make a human, the woman's part in the process being nothing more than a sort of fertile ground. Quran repeats this common fallacy. The bones are developed much later in the stage of the fetus. They do not come first and then ‘clothed’ with flesh as the Quran states.

Quran on Mountains

What the Quran says:

016.015: And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves;
078.006 Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs?

 
How things really are:

    Mountains are not pegs that keep the earth from shaking. In fact Mountains rise precisely in the process that makes the earth shake (collision of tektonic plates). Mountains were not set up in the beginning by a creator. Rather they are in a constant state of rising and eroding away but in such a slow fashion that they appear static to us.


Quran on the Origin of the Universe

What the Quran says:

21:11 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
41:30 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

Current scientific theory:

    The earth is a planet in one out of billions of solar systems. By comparison to the rest of the universe it is an insignificant speck of mass. In this context the phrase “they were joined together before we clove them asunder” is really meaningless.  It resembles no scientific model of the creation of the universe (big bang, creation of matter, formation of galaxies, hydrogen forming into stars etc etc). The second verse about the earth and the sky joining together is really meaningless.


    The list goes on and on. If you think that these kind of arguments can convince anyone then either you are ignorant of current scientific theories or you only use them on people who are ignorant themselves.

    Dimitris

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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 1:00am

i wasnt mistaken alhamdollelah ,when i said u dont look for any knowledge

your answers show great ignorance as usual
i will try to answer your questions if i had time,if not i will answer it after 2days because i have to travel very soon


Edited by mai moslemah - 17 August 2006 at 2:10am
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 1:03am
Another path towards God is that of logical thinking.
 
This book titled "He is Allah" has a section titled "The Logic Proof of the Existence of Allah":
 
Think Win-Win for a better world for all...

My Blog
Muslim Heritage

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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 2:02am

here is quick replies for those who seek guidance,now or if they are going to read this thread in future

i am in hurry,i will get into details when i am back inshaa Allah
1-for the embryological meracels
Dmertris u are not more knowledgeable than Dr.
Gerald C. Goeringer
which is:Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
 
or dr.Dr. E. Marshall Johnson which is :Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.

please all watch their statement about this miracle in the Quran
here(embriology)


also read more about this subject with details and photos here
details&pictures

2-the mountain

dimitris you comment without any scientific facts
please all look at this link..u will find information in detail

mountains



3-orgin of the universe

dimitris for sure u are not more knowledgeable than Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists.  He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany.
 
watch his comment
here

of course u all can google for information about those scholar who are non Muslims>>but truthful

have to go now.. peace be upon who seek the truthSmile
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Rhoda  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Rhoda Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 2:10am
Most atheists have an insatiable appetite for delusion that I don't share with them so we find no platform for discussion.

I think an atheist might have a different view of the type of person who has "an insatiable appetitie for delusion". Great phrase, by the way.
No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up. (Lily Tomlin)
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thejnk  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 2:14am
Originally posted by mai moslemah

here is quick replies for those who seek guidance,now or if they are going to read this thread in future

i am in hurry,i will get into details when i am back inshaa Allah
1-for the embryological meracels
Dmertris u are not more knowledgeable than Dr.
Gerald C. Goeringer
which is:Professor and Co-ordinator of Medical Embryology in the Department of Cell Biology, School of Medicine, Georgetown University, Washington DC, USA.
 
or dr.Dr. E. Marshall Johnson which is :Professor Emeritus of Anatomy and Developmental Biology at Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA.

please all watch their statement about this miracle in the Quran
here(embriology)


also read more about this subject with details and photos here
details&pictures

2-the mountain

dimitris you comment without any scientific facts
please all look at this link..u will find information in detail

mountains



3-orgin of the universe

dimitris for sure u are not more knowledgeable than Dr. Alfred Kroner is one of the world’s renowned geologists.  He is Professor of Geology and the Chairman of the Department of Geology at the Institute of Geosciences, Johannes Gutenberg University, Mainz, Germany.
 
watch his comment
here

of course u all can google for information about those scholar who are non Muslims>>but truthful

have to go now.. peace be upon who seek the truthSmile


    Please search the web for "appeal to authority fallacy".

    Perhaps afterwards you can read what these far more knoledgable than me scientists have to say on the matter and then come back and quote and reply to the substance of my arguments.

    Thanks

    Dimitris

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M.A.R.W.A.N
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2006 at 2:16am

I wouldn't try to convince an athiest/agnostic, or anyone else for that matter, that Islam is the truth, that would be a waste of time in most cases.

Better to ask if he/she sincerely wants the truth, and if they find it, will they follow?
 


Edited by M.A.R.W.A.N - 17 August 2006 at 2:17am
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