Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
Archive (Forum Locked Forum Locked)
 Whyislam.org Forums : Archive : Archive
Message Icon Topic: Lifting the Veil on the Veil Issue Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 11 Next >>
Author Message
Nura  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 5039
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 12:30pm
Actually I am angry with the mufti as well, not because of the story about the meat and the cat (which is not so untrue), but because he should let muslim women talking about muslim women's issues. I don't want any man (and any western feminist) to talk for me!
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Questioner  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Religion: Agnostic(Agnostic)
Posts: 984
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote Questioner Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 12:40pm
i agree. we'll step in upto the point you need us, then we'll back off...deal?
education is the solution.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Guests
Guest Group
Guest Group

Rating: -1 of 1 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Nura

Steady and Giordano, I am so moved by your concern for us, poor muslim women, I almost want to cry!


What I cannot undertand is why non-muslim men are always the first ones who run to defend muslim women...followed by non-muslim women...followed (sometimes) by muslim men.

And nobody asks muslim women, who are supposed to be the victims, if they really want to be defended or not.


Am I unpolite if I kindly ask non-muslim men to mind their own businness? Could you please leave us alone in our submission, in our backwarded inferiority, in our 7th century burkas?

What irritates you so much if you cannot see the hair or the legs of a muslim lady? You have sooooo many other legs to look at, probably more beautiful than ours...
Hello Nura

as far as I know, the crazy imam didn't refer to Muslim women only... he referred to all women going around immodestly dressed as uncovered meat. And he said that any woman who was raped could have avoided it simply by staying at home.

So, it's not an issue which concerns just you Muslim women and your 7th century Burqas...it concerns all of us.

In any case, human rights are universal, and apply also to human uncovered meat.

All the best

G
No Self-Vote Allowed.   IP IP Logged
steady
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Atheist)
Posts: 2187
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote steady Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 12:50pm
I don't know if you know Nura ... I am married to a Muslim woman ....

It doesn't irritate me that I can't see a Muslim ladies legs as I have a real live one to play with ... usually.

I see that you agree with the story of the cat and the uncovered meat .. does that mean that you agree with the point of the story ? That women who don't cover are complicit in their own rape ? If you do then I pity you ...

With women like you in Islamic society then I guess a few compasionate western feminist women (and men) had better be around to help the Muslim women judged as of loose morals when they are raped.

It might seem to you that by showing how "strong" you are on this issue then you are proving that Muslims women are not oppressed ... all it proves is that you are not oppressed ... and you couldn't care about those in your own community that are.

By continuing to defend the Burqa you are pleading for your sisters to remain opressed ... even in the loudest voice you've got nura .. that ain't freedom ... only freedom to be a chatel.

I am not talking for you when I state my opinons Nura ... I'm talking on my own behalf.
To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Munawar  
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 6189
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Munawar Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by steady

By continuing to defend the Burqa you are pleading for your sisters to remain opressed ... even in the loudest voice you've got nura .. that ain't freedom ... only freedom to be a chatel.


Wow - covering yourself out of modesty is oppression. I fear the day, when bigots such as steady start "imposing" their freedom on us.
Munawar@Whyislam.org
http://www.whyislam.org
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
steady
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
Religion: Atheist(Atheist)
Posts: 2187
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote steady Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 2:07pm
Check back in the thread Munawar,

You'll see what I think about the "modesty" lie ...

Covering oneself with a big black cloth has gone so far beyond modesty it's untrue ....

What do you think of the person who stands on the highest tower proclaiming himself to be the most modest person EVER !!!! ?

If the Burqa is modesty then I'm a teapot ...

It is nothing more than a public adversitement of piety (if worn by choice) or an advertisement of oppresion if not ... neither of which is particularly about modesty IMO.

... and talking of pots and kettles.. to be called a bigot by you is a rare honour indeed Mr Munawar .. the guy who stated (without irony) that Westerners had no morals .. and went on to argue that we are more prone to rape !!!!

Talking of bigots, have you no such similar words of encouragement for your brother in Australia Munawar ?

If my bigotry is intolerence of opression ... then I'll wear my badge with pride


To see the world in a grain of sand,
and a heaven in a wild flower.
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
and eternity in an hour. - Blake
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Guests
Guest Group
Guest Group

Rating: -1 of 1 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Munawar

Wow - covering yourself out of modesty is oppression. I fear the day, when bigots such as steady start "imposing" their freedom on us.
There is a "modestier than thou" game going on  in Islamic circles. Women wearing a headscarf will claim  they are more modest than those not wearing it. Women wearing niqab will claim they are more modest than those simply wearing the headscarf. Women wearing a complete scaphander will claim that those in a niqab are less modest.

And yet, all these concepts ("modesty" , "immodesty") are relative, not absolute.

If everyone is covered from head to foot, someone showing the eyes will be considered as obscenely "provocative". If everyone shows just the eyes, those showing the face will be the immoral, decadent minxes etc etc

Therefore, this race towards covering up is, by definition, useless: in fact, there are civilizations where everyone runs around naked, and no one feels provoked.

The concept of "modesty" is cultural, not absolute. In our "Western" society, this concept is now very different from the one prevalent in traditional Muslim societies. This provides for a cultural shock, which has to be somehow accomodated.

And, that's all there is to it.

All the best

G


No Self-Vote Allowed.   IP IP Logged
scruggnut  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Location: Canada
Religion: Unknown(Unknown)
Posts: 3914
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 2:46pm
Quite correct, gio.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
salwa05  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 681
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote salwa05 Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by giordano

Originally posted by Munawar

Wow - covering yourself out of modesty is oppression. I fear the day, when bigots such as steady start "imposing" their freedom on us.
There is a "modestier than thou" game going on  in Islamic circles. Women wearing a headscarf will claim  they are more modest than those not wearing it. Women wearing niqab will claim they are more modest than those simply wearing the headscarf. Women wearing a complete scaphander will claim that those in a niqab are less modest.

And yet, all these concepts ("modesty" , "immodesty") are relative, not absolute.

If everyone is covered from head to foot, someone showing the eyes will be considered as obscenely "provocative". If everyone shows just the eyes, those showing the face will be the immoral, decadent minxes etc etc

Therefore, this race towards covering up is, by definition, useless: in fact, there are civilizations where everyone runs around naked, and no one feels provoked.

The concept of "modesty" is cultural, not absolute. In our "Western" society, this concept is now very different from the one prevalent in traditional Muslim societies. This provides for a cultural shock, which has to be somehow accomodated.

And, that's all there is to it.

All the best

G


 
The concept of modesty is not cultural but INNATE.  There are indeed cultures where everybody walks around naked but they are called "primitive" cultures.  When your soul and spirit elevate, you honour your body by covering it. 


Edited by salwa05 - 30 October 2006 at 3:16pm
Allah knows best
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
scruggnut  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Location: Canada
Religion: Unknown(Unknown)
Posts: 3914
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 3:29pm

Ooooo, i knew that someone was going to call the naked people savages.  I can hear the drums beating right now.

I guess that the question is, whether a "primitive" culture is necessarily a bad thing; and if it is; couldn't the prophet muhammads and his followers way of life, by modern terms, be considered "primitive"?

Of course, you and anyone else who lives an islamic life, will hesitate to think of it as "primitive"; but then, does the culture which walks around naked consider itself to be "primitive"?



Edited by scruggnut - 30 October 2006 at 3:30pm
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
salwa05  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 681
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote salwa05 Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 4:26pm

And I also knew that someone would change my words and use savages instead of primitive.

You can study anthropology, visit these "exotic" tribes and come back after your holidays with tons of pics taken of people who walk around naked, even if you have shaken their hands you'll certainly not let your daughter or son walk around naked in the street.

Can we just try not to be hypocrits for once?  We are talking about human dignity not a culture above another.

Allah knows best
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
salwa05  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 681
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote salwa05 Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 4:31pm
Scruggnut we can call all ancient cultures primitive if you want compared to contemporary cultures and civilizations and how modern they are.  But when primitive is used for cultures that exist nowadays it has a totally different meaning and connotation.
 
Now remember that during the time of the pharoanic civilization, all other cultures were considered as primitive (becoz they hadn't reached the level of "enlightment" the Egyptians had reached. 
 
 
 
Allah knows best
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Misbah  
Super Mureed
Super Mureed
Avatar
Location: England
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 8576
Forum Rating: 103
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Misbah Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 6:35pm

Oh my God!!

I just don't understand this, why the hell is being covered (Choose) to, such a big deal? why is so bad to cover? i don't get it? so what if people who cover think those who don't are below them. They can think what they like, women half dressed think what they can too, the bottom line is what does a uncovered women mainly think when she passes one that does.

'Oh look at her, she thinks shes better than us doesn't she'? and why she thinks this? well the psychological thing for me , i think, is that she 'knows' its better and feels annoyed and the annoyance comes from embarrassment i bet! that 'that' woman covered, brings out her own insecurities.. trust me, i studied psychology.

It is not the intent to attempt to resolve this issue here. There are strong arguments for both positions.

Rape occurs on any occasion, but I'm telling you this, as in thinking as a man here, if i saw a nice lady dressed with a lot of flesh showing the thoughts as pure instinct for a man would be sexual, for a woman its different. Women can see naked or semi naked man and nothing happens.. This is the way God intended, or else we wouldn't have any reproduction and you wouldn't see no kids in sight.

Just face it, if a lot of flesh on woman can be seen, sexual feeling will arise (and please, don't tell me otherwise)

Just because we have beauty and a body doesn't mean it has to be out on show for everyone to admire, at least 'we' women can have a tiny control on this.


'To get to man, you must first break the woman'


Edited by Misbah - 30 October 2006 at 6:37pm
"Donít be so humble - you ain't that great."
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
salwa05  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Location: Egypt
Religion: Islam(Sunni)
Posts: 681
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote salwa05 Replybullet Posted: 30 October 2006 at 6:41pm
Exactly Misbah and I didn't study psychology but I agree :)
Allah knows best
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 11 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.