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jonfan
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jonfan Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 6:32pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

No I wouldn't.
 

To a Catholic, being that an apostle is usually defined as:

 

1- A disciple of Jesus

2- One who carried the message of the Christianity to the world

 

...so naturally, I don't believe Paul was an apostle of God, because I don't believe in the Christian message.



THE TERM APOSTLE FROM HERE ON OUT WILL EQUAL-MAN CALLED BY GOD.


HI MARWAN,

In a previous post regarding the OP you said:

If something in Islam happens to coincide with the Bible, that's fine.. The way we work the Bible is like this:

1- Some parts of the Bible are true, we accept them.
2- Some parts of the Bible are false, we don't accept them.
3- As for the rest, we simply don't know because Allah didn't give us that knowledge, so we don't confirm nor deny.


Now you are saying Paul was not an apostle of God but since Mohammed's teaching is coinciding with Paul's teaching it is ok because it is similar to Mohammeds teaching and the Bible can coincide with the Quran. ???? If that is the case than Mohammed is not an apostle of God thus not having absolute truth which is the same accusation you make against Paul.

For example I as a Christian would disagree that Zoroaster's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster) revelations were true at all even if it agreed with Pauls teachings as I believe Christian Scripture to be the full truth.

So which is it? Do you believe Paul's taching to be true because it agree's with Mohammeds? If so then you have to accept Paul as an apostle. If you claim Paul's teaching is false than you must discount Mohammeds teaching as wrong regarding the OP verses.

Thanks and God bless,
Jonfan


God bless,
Jon

Edited by jonfan - 08 December 2006 at 6:38pm
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ezkl9four  
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Rating: 1 of 1 votes Quote ezkl9four Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 6:39pm
Oh good grief Marwan;
 
Why can't you compare the two verses Jonfan has offered and admit that there is an amazing similarity?
 
the Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.' "

1 Corinthians 2:9
2:9. But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.
 
Since Paul preceeded Muhammed by hundreds of years, Paul certainly didn't copy from Muhammed. Now, this is not the Qur'an Jonfan is quoting, it's a hadith. So, the insinuation here is that a follower of Muhammed quoted Muhammed perhaps quoting Paul, maybe having read 1 Corinthians 2:9 OR perhaps both Paul AND Muhammed are quoting the following verse;
 
Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Isaiah 64:3-5 (in Context) Isaiah 64 (Whole Chapter)
 
If this is the case, then Muslims would have to admit one of two things;
 
Either Paul was indeed a godly man who quoted the same things Muhammed quoted from the Bible as a reliable source, OR...
 
At the very least, the Bible, including the Books of Isaiah and Corinthians are confirmed by Muhammed. Which would again seem to vindicate Paul since he wrote the letters to the Corinthians.
 
Good research, Jonfan!
 
ez
Go through the midist of Jerusalem and place a mark upon those sighing and crying over the abominations committed within the midist of her.
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ezkl9four  
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Rating: 1 of 1 votes Quote ezkl9four Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 6:58pm

Marwan wrote;

1- A disciple of Jesus
2- One who carried the message of the Christianity to the world
 
...so naturally, I don't believe Paul was an apostle of God, because I don't believe in the Christian message.
 
You don't believe in the Christian message??? You don't believe in the message of the prophet Jesus??? You don't believe that Jesus sent his followers out to teach the nations all the things he taught them???
 

Matthew 28:18-21 King James Version

 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Marwan, isn't this what Muhammed also did? He repeated Christ's teachings who repeated Moses teachings. And this is also what Paul did. Paul taught one God at 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 just like Jesus did at John 17:1-3. And he circumsized Timothy according to Jewish Law. It was Peter, not Paul who had the dream declaring unclean foods clean. Will Muslims PLEASE step up to the plate and do what you are asking Christians to do, and that is; read what the Bible actually says and credit Paul fairly for what he taught and place the blame for false teachings on men who came along long after Paul.
 
ez
 
 
Go through the midist of Jerusalem and place a mark upon those sighing and crying over the abominations committed within the midist of her.
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Ibn Al-Akwa  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ibn Al-Akwa Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by ezkl9four

If this is the case, then Muslims would have to admit one of two things;
Either Paul was indeed a godly man who quoted the same things Muhammed quoted from the Bible as a reliable source, OR...


Ez, Muslims don't say the whole bible is wrong. We just say that parts of bible is corrupt. We respect it as being a holy book of Christians.

I am not sure if you know this but two kids at an Islamic school in Melbourne, disrespected bible and they were expelled, early this week. This clearly shows that we do hold Bible respected although we don't believe in many things in it.

Jon,
Allah (SWT) who sent the message to Moses, did to Jesus and so did to Muhammad (peace be upon them all). Of course certain things will be similar or even identical.

I don't want to get to the discussion about Paul, as you guys hold him holy, so it would mean disrespecting you if I say unfavorable things about him, not that I would anyway.
To you is your religion to me is mine!

Edited by Hameedullah - 08 December 2006 at 8:50pm
8:36: Indeed, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to avert [people] from the way of Allah. So they will spend it; then it will be for them a [source of] regret; then they will be overcome.
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MedGirl
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Rating: 0 of 2 votes Quote MedGirl Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by laurieann

Gnostics are attempting to unite "monotheists" around the worship of lucifer.
Who wants unity if it means bowing to the enemy of the Creator?
 
Jesus is a much better uniter of monotheists, because He submits to God.
 
Laurie
 
 
God submits to God?!!??!! Now you have confused me. But its ok!! Christianity always confuses me.
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M.A.R.W.A.N
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Rating: 0 of 2 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 8:23pm
Ezkl and Jonfan,
 
Collectively, you've brought several issues that have nothing to do with my explanation, so I won't get into them. From my perspective, the Prophet couldn't have copied Paul because:
 
He couldn't read (as Ezkl claimed).....His teachings come straight from Allah, they do not come from Paul (or the Bible, or even Jesus pbuh)......He is not allowed to "borrow" information from other religions; doing so would be the gravest of sins according to the command of Allah.......Paul is not an important figure within the Islam, copying him would have accomplished nothing....etc................Now I could go on, but that would be useless. Because I know you don't believe Muhammad pbuh is a prophet to begin with. So to you, he's basically a fake. Therefore, it would be useless to convince you this way.
 
So let me try another approach, and I think we'll all agree on it. You both have to admit that the following is all possible:
 
1- Paul heard teachings from Jesus pbuh, and he repeated them.
 
2- Some of those teachings, according to muslims, are true.
 
3- When the Prophet pbuh stated something which sounded similar, it's only because the truth had not changed in either religion (for example, both Christianity and Islam have always claimed that there is a Judgement Day)
 
So regarding your verse and our hadith, I say YES! Allah really has created something in Paradise which the ear has not heard, the eyes have not seen, and the hearts haven't imagined etc. etc. However, jumping to other conclusions isn't productive nor does it make them true, it just makes it look like a moutain's been made out of a mole.
 
***
 
One other thing before I go, if someone says truth, it doesn't mean they are truthful in general. For example, and I'm totally exxagerating here, but only to make a point ==> Even satan claims that God exists, it doesn't change the fact that on many other occasions, satan is a liar and a deceiver (and NO, I am NOT comparing Paul with satan, only illustrating that this verse doesn't automatically mean Paul was an apostle - he could have been just an ordinary man who heard something and repeated it).


Edited by M.A.R.W.A.N - 08 December 2006 at 8:28pm
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 2 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 8:47pm
No, Muhamamd pbuh did not copy Paul. What was said by Muhammad pbuh was from Allah swt.

Just for Laurieann--Muslims do not consider any verse in the Qur'an to quote the Bible, not a single one. Every letter in the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, from God. Muslims acknowledge that God revealed Scripture before the Qur'an, and some of that does appear in the Bible. The same source is God. It's a common error to say that the Qur'an uses the Bible as a source, when in fact, it's more correct to say that the Qur'an totally and the Bible partially are directly from God, the same source. So naturally, there are similarities.

And I don't think this verse is the only one of Paul's that coincides with Islamic theory. Overall, the theology of Paul is totally denounced by the Qur'an and hadith. If you strip it down to the basics, essentially it's rejected. But Paul wasn't completely off base. Do you know why? Because he was Jewish, studying in the Jewish tradition, and had come from a religion that was very knowledgeable about previous scriptures--that influenced his writing. That is to say, his knowledge of Jewish texts that had been previously revealed by God was extensive, and had a strong impact on his new Christian theology.

Muslims while denouncing the changes he affected with his new doctrine, would naturally accept many of the premises on which he built it--because they are Jewish in nature, and based on the Torah and the Psalms.

The phrase in question follows a rhetoric probably not rare in Semitic languages and incidentally it kind of parallels a passage in prophetic literature. So Paul copied it.
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laurieann
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Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote laurieann Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 10:13pm
YOu can believe someone is called as an apostle without believing their message. You can just admit that you don't believe the message they brought.
Laurie
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laurieann
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Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote laurieann Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

No, Muhamamd pbuh did not copy Paul. What was said by Muhammad pbuh was from Allah swt.

Just for Laurieann--Muslims do not consider any verse in the Qur'an to quote the Bible, not a single one. Every letter in the Qur'an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, from God. Muslims acknowledge that God revealed Scripture before the Qur'an, and some of that does appear in the Bible. The same source is God. It's a common error to say that the Qur'an uses the Bible as a source, when in fact, it's more correct to say that the Qur'an totally and the Bible partially are directly from God, the same source. So naturally, there are similarities.

And I don't think this verse is the only one of Paul's that coincides with Islamic theory. Overall, the theology of Paul is totally denounced by the Qur'an and hadith. If you strip it down to the basics, essentially it's rejected. But Paul wasn't completely off base. Do you know why? Because he was Jewish, studying in the Jewish tradition, and had come from a religion that was very knowledgeable about previous scriptures--that influenced his writing. That is to say, his knowledge of Jewish texts that had been previously revealed by God was extensive, and had a strong impact on his new Christian theology.

Muslims while denouncing the changes he affected with his new doctrine, would naturally accept many of the premises on which he built it--because they are Jewish in nature, and based on the Torah and the Psalms.

The phrase in question follows a rhetoric probably not rare in Semitic languages and incidentally it kind of parallels a passage in prophetic literature. So Paul copied it.
there is really  no way for you to prove that the  Quran was not partially derived from Jewish and Christian books.
we note the similarities
 
Laurie
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laurieann
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Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote laurieann Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 10:15pm
Originally posted by indiangirl

Originally posted by laurieann

Gnostics are attempting to unite "monotheists" around the worship of lucifer.
Who wants unity if it means bowing to the enemy of the Creator?
 
Jesus is a much better uniter of monotheists, because He submits to God.
 
Laurie
 
 
God submits to God?!!??!! Now you have confused me. But its ok!! Christianity always confuses me.
As a man, Jesus totally submits to God, and will forever. Jesus is the head of mankind, not the head of God.
Laurie
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Rating: -1 of 3 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by laurieann

there is really  no way for you to prove that the  Quran was not partially derived from Jewish and Christian books.
we note the similarities
 
Laurie


There's no way you can prove that Paul ever saw a risen Jesus.

But the Qur'an proves to me that it is from God. It's a more difficult sell to prove that the Qur'an was copied, because Muhammad pbuh was illiterate and would not have had access to the Biblical texts anyway. If he was copying them, why the differences? Reading the Qur'an should be enough for a believer to tell if it's from God, or not. Can you take that challenge?
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laurieann
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Rating: -2 of 2 votes Quote laurieann Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 11:24pm
I am sure Mohammed was given the book, I just doubt that an angel gave it to him.
Laurie
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Rating: 0 of 2 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 08 December 2006 at 11:59pm
Do you believe the angel Gabriel exists?
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Rating: 0 of 2 votes Quote MedGirl Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2006 at 12:12am
Originally posted by laurieann

Originally posted by indiangirl

Originally posted by laurieann

Gnostics are attempting to unite "monotheists" around the worship of lucifer.
Who wants unity if it means bowing to the enemy of the Creator?
 
Jesus is a much better uniter of monotheists, because He submits to God.
 
Laurie

 
 
God submits to God?!!??!! Now you have confused me. But its ok!! Christianity always confuses me.

As a man, Jesus totally submits to God, and will forever. Jesus is the head of mankind, not the head of God.
Laurie

 
So are you one of the Christians who thinks that Jesus isn't God? By using simple logic, anyone who thinks that Jesus isn't God, would NOT say that Jesus submits to God.
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