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Faith1
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faith1 Replybullet Topic: Trinity in Qur'an
    Posted: 27 April 2007 at 4:12pm
Kadaveri
 

Maybe in Christian theology it doesn't, but in under any logical reasoning if A = B then B = A, always.
 
was Al-Ach'ari Christian? not as far as i know yet he said:
 
We confess that the Kuran is the speech of Allah, uncreated, His inspiration and revelation, not He, yet not other than He.
 
 
 
 Did you consider that maybe another reason the Qur'an does this is to illustrate how Christian theology is illogical?
when you refute, you give the correct belief then you refute. You can neither refute nor ridicule something when you present it incorrectly in the first place.
 
 But even ignoring that, if you're going to claim that then explain why the very next verse says: "They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three".
God is one OF three is wrong as well. God is thalithu thalatha is wrong as well since the Father is the first not third. Really, an all-knowing deity cannot get things incorrectly.

KAD EDIT: I created this thread by moving posts from the 'Questions Muslims can't answer' thread into this one so we can have an on-track discussion, it'll have Faith as the thread-starter because her's was the earliest post I moved, not because she created it.
 
 


 


Edited by Kadaveri - 30 April 2007 at 7:40pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 4:24pm
Oh I'm very sorry I thought you knew Arabic; because of course any native Arabic speaker would know that 'thalithu thalatha' means that something is one out of three and doesn't denote any partiuclar order since there is no definite article.

Originally posted by Faith1

that's the weirdest response i read so far. A is B does not necessarily mean B is A in theology. Jesus is God because he is the eternal, uncreated, divine word of God but God is not Jesus because God is His Word and His Spirit. Your attempt to cover up the inaccurate theological refutation in the Quran fails in light of what Christian theology teaches. Most probably Muhammad did not understand it either.


Maybe in Christian theology it doesn't, but in under any logical reasoning if A = B then B = A, always. Did you consider that maybe another reason the Qur'an does this is to illustrate how Christian theology is illogical? But even ignoring that, if you're going to claim that then explain why the very next verse says: "They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three". The next verse just cuts that argument to pieces, since it shows the Qur'an understands that Christians view the Father and the Son as different (both being one of three) yet the same (God is Christ).

Believe the Qur'an is wrong if you want, but don't try to argue that it doesn't understand Christian theology, it understands it perfectly.


Edited by Kadaveri - 30 April 2007 at 7:28pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 4:25pm
The thing with the Christian beliefs that really tears this argument up for you Faith, is that it's not consistent. The Qur'an condemns it a couple of different ways, and each one you say it doesn't fully understand. The reality is that the Qur'an refutes each way the Christians messed up, and all you can do is pretend that one refutation won't work because the meaning was wrong, but then another one attacks it from another angle so you have to switch positions again.
 
Your understanding of Christianity is now beginning to be as laughable as your understanding of Islam. You've got to stop putting your own interpretations and assumptions on top of the words of Muhammad, for one thing, that's just flat out irritating.
 
But more importantly, when the Qur'an refutes one belief of Christians, you counter with another that you allege clarifies the first and why the Qur'an didn't get it right. Then the Qur'an refutes that belief and you go back to the first. This is why it's so tiring to argue with you, it's like you don't even know what you're talking about. Willful ignorance or something.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faith1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Kadaveri

Oh I'm very sorry I thought you knew Arabic; because of course any native Arabic speaker would know that 'thalithu thalatha' means that something is one out of three and doesn't denote any partiuclar order since there is no definite article.
seems am not the only one who doesn't know Arabic well since the translators translate it as " third of three" and not "one of 3"..well that's because thalithu thalatha = third of 3..same root for the same number.
 
Besides, 3 what?Christians never said God is the third of three which is thritheism as opposed to Trinity which is the NATURE, not the number of the ONE God . And Christians do not say God is one of 3.   Their creed begings with " we believe in ONE God",  so Christians say God is One. as you should know.
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 4:59pm
There you go again Faith1, switching sides. Defending one point against one accusation by falling into the trap of the other one. Then we attack that one and you fall into this one to defend the other.
 
Yawn.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faith1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

The thing with the Christian beliefs that really tears this argument up for you Faith, is that it's not consistent. The Qur'an condemns it a couple of different ways, and each one you say it doesn't fully understand. The reality is that the Qur'an refutes each way the Christians messed up, and all you can do is pretend that one refutation won't work because the meaning was wrong, but then another one attacks it from another angle so you have to switch positions again.
 
Your understanding of Christianity is now beginning to be as laughable as your understanding of Islam. You've got to stop putting your own interpretations and assumptions on top of the words of Muhammad, for one thing, that's just flat out irritating.
 
But more importantly, when the Qur'an refutes one belief of Christians, you counter with another that you allege clarifies the first and why the Qur'an didn't get it right. Then the Qur'an refutes that belief and you go back to the first. This is why it's so tiring to argue with you, it's like you don't even know what you're talking about. Willful ignorance or something.
you can always enlighten me Aviatrix. You can show me how the Quran refutes Christianity from all corners.
 
 What i know is that when an all-knowing deity wants to refute something, he does it clearly, stating it correctly, without giving the wrong impression that Christians adore 3 gods, or that Jesus is the physical son of God, or that they adore Mary, without even mentioning the belief about the Holy Spirit. We are talking about the "perfection" and the "clarity" of the Quran and it's eloquent and precise language so if an all-knowing deity wanted to refute the Christian belief, i'd expect some clear and correct theology, and maybe one clear sentence like : do not say Father, son and Holy Spirit and  not teachings that make Muslims look ridiculous while trying to refute Christianity.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Faith1

seems am not the only one who doesn't know Arabic well since the translators translate it as " third of three" and not "one of 3"..well that's because thalithu thalatha = third of 3..same root for the same number.
 
 
 
 
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them
 
... Allaha thalithu thalathatin ....
 
 
Seems to me like the translation can be made in a multiple of ways. You do understand they writers don't always work literally....that the essence of the message takes precedence over its exact translation.
 
As an arab, I fail to see your point because the intepretation you've chosen to apply doesn't affect the original text.
 
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Faith1

 
 What i know is that when an all-knowing deity wants to refute something, he does it clearly, stating it correctly, without giving the wrong impression that Christians adore 3 gods, or that Jesus is the physical son of God, or that they adore Mary, without even mentioning the belief about the Holy Spirit. We are talking about the "perfection" and the "clarity" of the Quran and it's eloquent and precise language so if an all-knowing deity wanted to refute the Christian belief, i'd expect some clear and correct theology, and maybe one clear sentence like : do not say Father, son and Holy Spirit and  not teachings that make Muslims look ridiculous while trying to refute Christianity.
 
This is a circular argument. You reject the perfection of the Qur'an to begin with, and so any evidence shown in defense of it, even if logical/true, is ignored based on the fact that it's not something you can agree to faithfully.
 
This means your posts are merely used to cause doubt and  confuse others, there is no attempt at arriving at the truth.
 
Worst of all, any misunderstandings that arise from your faulty knowledge are blamed on God for not doing a good enough job for you.


Edited by M.A.R.W.A.N - 27 April 2007 at 5:20pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 5:31pm
Originally posted by Faith1

seems am not the only one who doesn't know Arabic well since the translators translate it as " third of three" and not "one of 3"..well that's because thalithu thalatha = third of 3..same root for the same number.


Why are you arguing this with me when you know I'm right. I mean you've pretty much agreed with me but then continued to argue as if I was wrong! Now as you know, 'thalithu' does mean 'third', however it does not mean 'the third', as in 'the third' in an order of three because there is no definite article. For it to mean 'the third' it would have to say 'Al-thalithu', which it doesn't. Now this method of expression doesn't exist in English, one can't literally translate it as "They do blaspheme who say: God is third of three" since that doesn't make sense grammatically in English. So translators are left with a choice, change it slightly to make sense by giving it as 'God is the third of three' when there is no 'the' in the original text', or sacrifice the literal translation by giving an effective meaning by translating it as 'God is one of three', which in terms of expressing the closest meaning to that of the Arabic is the most correct.

Just because some English translators gave a misleading translation doesn't mean you have the right to exploit that, especially when you can read Arabic yourself and so know doing this is dishonest. Do not lie.


Originally posted by Faith1

Besides, 3 what?Christians never said God is the third of three which is thritheism as opposed to Trinity which is the NATURE, not the number of the ONE God . And Christians do not say God is one of 3.   Their creed begings with " we believe in ONE God",  so Christians say God is One. as you should know


You've done it again, forming arguments on unproven premises. Does the Qur'an ever say that Christians believe in three gods? No, it doesn't, all it says is do not say 'three' but it doesn't say three what exactly. Do you think that it doesn't say three what exactly for a reason, or do you think it's because the author just couldn't be bothered to finish the sentence and write 'gods'? If so you'll have to explain why in addressing Zoroastrian beliefs in 16:51 the Qur'an says not to take two gods.

Think about why the Qur'an just leaves it at 'three' when denouncing Christian beliefs, but it doesn't have any issues with calling the Zoroastrians out for taking two gods. There's a very good reason why the Qur'an does this, and this is one of the things that illustrates the Qur'an's flawless understanding of Christian theology.


Edited by Kadaveri - 03 December 2007 at 7:14pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faith1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

Originally posted by Faith1

seems am not the only one who doesn't know Arabic well since the translators translate it as " third of three" and not "one of 3"..well that's because thalithu thalatha = third of 3..same root for the same number.
 
 
 
 
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them
 
... Allaha thalithu thalathatin ....
 
 
Seems to me like the translation can be made in a multiple of ways. You do understand they writers don't always work literally....that the essence of the message takes precedence over its exact translation.
 
As an arab, I fail to see your point because the intepretation you've chosen to apply doesn't affect the original text.
 
 
 
  the translation i chose does not affect the original text for sure because it is the literal, correct one .The one you chose resembles that of Hilali-Khan where it is added that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. That's why i avoid translations where translators add their own understanding.
Besides, the aya says : for there is no God except one, giving the impression that what Christians believe in is 3 gods, which is not the case.
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote deep thought Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 6:47pm
"or that Jesus is the physical son of God"

Are u kidding me? You are Christian right? I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church... TRUST ME... People believe that Jesus is the physical son of God(and god at the same time )... The ONLY BEGOTTEN? Does that ring a bell?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faith1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 6:51pm
Kadaveri
 
Why are you arguing this with me when you know I'm right, I mean you've pretty much agreed with me but then continued to argue as if I was wrong.
i did not agree with you. I said that what the translators write is correct because thalithu thalatha is third of three.
 
 
Now as you know, 'thalithu' does mean 'third', however it does not mean 'the third' as in the third in an order of three because there is no definite article. For it to mean 'the third' it would have to say 'Al-thalithu', which it doesn't.
we can't say "al-thalithu thalathin".
 
You can't say : laqad kafara man qal anna Allaha al-thalithu thalathin. The correct way is : laqad kafara man qala anna Allaha thalithu thalathin. 
 
The Quran must either say (al-thalithu min thalathatin),  for example, or thalithu thalatatin and both mean third of three, the first being "the third of three" and the second "third of three". Making thalithu (third) as "one" because the expression is not in English does not reflect the true meaning. But to cut things short, saying God is one of three is not what Christian teach.They neither say God is third of three, nor God is the third of three, nor God is one of three. The best sentence, the most concise and accurate one would be : laqad kafara man qala anna Allaha wahidun FI  thalatha or thalathati aqanim. THey blaspheme who say God is One IN three. That's the correct Christian teaching. Do you think God does not know this?




You've done it again, making argument based on unproven premises. Does the Qur'an ever say that Christians believe in three gods? No, it doesn't, all it says is do not say 'three' but it doesn't say three what exactly.
the 3 "what" is understood from the rest of the aya : "because God is only one" . So what the Quran is refuting is many gods. What do you think? do you think it's refuting the 3 Aqanim ? it's refuting that God's Word and Spirit are divine? 
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faith1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by deep thought

"or that Jesus is the physical son of God"

Are u kidding me? You are Christian right? I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church... TRUST ME... People believe that Jesus is the physical son of God(and god at the same time )... The ONLY BEGOTTEN? Does that ring a bell?
seems it wrings a bell only to those who read the Quran without understanding the correct Christian teaching. Southern Baptists believe that God got married and had Jesus? can you give me a link to that church? besides, this would prove that the Quran is refuting the wrong interpretation of sonship, not the correct one.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2007 at 7:26pm
I'm not angry, I'm stopping you carrying on with your 'the third of three' in further posts when you knew it was wrong.

And the Qur'an never says that Christians believe Jesus (as) is the literal physical son of God, so don't try to pull that rabbit out of the hat.

Originally posted by Faith1

we can't say "al-thalithu thalathin".
 
You can't say : laqad kafara man qal anna Allaha al-thalithu thalathin. The correct way is : laqad kafara man qala anna Allaha thalithu thalathin. 
 
The Quran must either say (al-thalithu min thalathatin),  for example, or thalithu thalatatin and both mean third of three, the first being "the third of three" and the second "third of three". Making thalithu (third) as "one" because the expression is not in English does not reflect the true meaning. But to cut things short, saying God is one of three is not what Christian teach.They neither say God is third of three, nor God is the third of three, nor God is one of three. The best sentence, the most concise and accurate one would be : laqad kafara man qala anna Allaha wahidun FI  thalatha or thalathati aqanim. THey blaspheme who say God is One IN three. That's the correct Christian teaching. Do you think God does not know this?


You're hair-splitting.

The point is the Qur'an doesn't say Christians believe God is the third of three (as opposed to the first or the second). Changing it to 'in' wouldn't make a difference since in Islam God does not consist of three, so why should the Qur'an humour it? You can't expect the Qur'an to use the Christian definition of 'God', especially since it's that very definition it's denouncing in this verse, that would be stupid. What the Qur'an is referring to by 'Allah' in that verse is synonymous what Christians call 'the Father', and that in Islam is the only true God. Now do Christians say that the Father is one of three? Yes. Thus they blaspheme.

Originally posted by Faith1

the 3 "what" is understood from the rest of the aya : "because God is only one" . So what the Quran is refuting is many gods. What do you think? do you think it's refuting the 3 Aqanim ? it's refuting that God's Word and Spirit are divine?


Incorrect. As well as being inconsistent with 16:51, if the Qur'an were saying Christians believe in three gods in this verse, then it would be contradicting the very verse before it that says 'They do blaspheme who say: God is Christ'. Do you understand why this is so? Because it says Christians believe Jesus IS God, that the Father and Jesus are one and the same god. Therefore it can't be saying that Christians believe in three separate gods if it says right before it that Christians believe they are one and the same, for how could Christians believe that the Father and Jesus are the same god yet different gods? You just can't reconcile that.

Edited by Kadaveri - 27 April 2007 at 7:29pm
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