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UmDanu  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote UmDanu Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 4:54pm
Salam,
 
I'm glad Pam has joined us in this forum, her story should serve as a reminder to us that even our faith is a gift from God, and we can lose it.  Alhamdulillah that we have not been tested to that extent.  We may face hard times in our dunya lives, but nothing that can compare to the catastrophe of losing our faith.  And it's very important not to get into a sense of complacency about our Islam, or worse yet arrogantly regard ourselves as better than people who have not been blessed with Iman, and forget that this loss is something that could happen to any of us. 
 
Pam, the door remains open, and I sincerely hope you will choose to return to the worship of God alone.
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Khalil20  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Khalil20 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 5:29pm
Thats what happens when you get tired of praying 5 times a day, remembering Allaah, and sick of wearing hijaab... you find excuses to water down your religion.
 
Subhan Allaah!!


Edited by Khalil20 - 14 January 2008 at 5:30pm
Explain the "breath of life" logically without using the word "God"......

There is always a creator behind the creation.
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Pam61  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Pam61 Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 5:54pm
Is this a muslim attitude to insult people. I dont think so. I pray more than 5 times a day, how do u know if i ever wore hijab? what do u think u gain by being so rude? Islam means Peace. Insulting gets u now where. It is not easy to be a believer Christian or Muslim for your information the Shayton or Satan loves to test Christians as well. The Laws still need to be followed especially ..........to love and forgive just as God does. by the way I forgive you.  I have a great responsibilty as a Believer to make my Creator pleased with me no matter what faith I follow. Peace on You.
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 6:01pm
Islam means Peace.
 
No it doesn't.
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IssaRaheem  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote IssaRaheem Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 8:28pm
Salaam,
 
Islam means submission, but you cannot fully submit if you don't act in a peaceful manner, so in a way, it does mean peace... Lets calm down everyone....


Edited by IssaRaheem - 14 January 2008 at 8:45pm
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Dolcy
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Dolcy Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by Khalil20

It makes no sense that people were around before christ and all of a sudden God wants to send him to die for our sins. Be realistic......
 
Why would God send his son to die for our sins? who made up such a fairy tale? What does that mean.... "die for our sins"????
 
Its the biggest nonsense I ever heard. God is Oft-Forgiving and Most Powerful. He doesn't need a Son. He doesn't need someone to die for our sins if he can simply forgive them directly. He created us with is own hands... so whhy would he put someone between us and him you people make no sense
 
Jesus just didn't happen along 2000 years ago. We are told in The Gospel Of John: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. 
 
"All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men." John 1:1-5 King James Version
 
Jesus tells us "I and my Father are one" John 10:30 King James Version
 
When you slip back into the Old Testament we find that Jesus was prophceied there. Not acturally called by the name of Jesus, the text refers to him: " Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
 
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
 
He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
 
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors: and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Isaiah 53:1- 12 King James Version
 
 
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Eleanor Burne-Jones <>       Salvation Army Forum   November 10th, 2007
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 2:53am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Islam means Peace.
 
No it doesn't.
 
Maybe Pam61 meant this:
 
"How could the world's religion of peace do otherwise? The meaning of the word Islam in Arabic comes from the lexical root s-l-m, from which the Arabic word meaning "peace" is derived."
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Nura  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 6:07am
Originally posted by Pam61

I was not refering to the Saudi Royal family they do not do the kutbah the Scholors of Islam and the Imams do them.. the royal family is not the ones telling muslims to fear america and the kuffar. you missed my point here..
 
Of course I was referring to the scholars. I meant, they shoudl first look at what's happening in their own house (Saudi Arabia) and then accuse other countries.
 
Originally posted by Pam61

also i believe in the whole bible in full the ot and nt..the old is full of stories to learn from as well as the Laws, the New testiment points to Jesus as fully God and fully human. Muslims are suppose to believe in the Holy books before the Quran.
 
We believe God had sent other Holy Books before the Qur'an, but they are not entirely preserved. Just yesterday I saw something on TV about the different redactions and the different authors of the Bible. It's clear that Bible scholars don't believe in the actual Bible as one the pure wors of God, as Muslim do with the Qur'an.
 
Originally posted by Pam61

Were are all the muslims in the middle east and pakistan getting there hatred toward the west from? The schools over there teach from the Quran. my children attended those schools..im not making this stuff up. I also went to a muslim womens school myself that taught this hatred of the west, i was in the middle east when 911 happened and people were cheering in the streets...where did they get there hatred from? The scholors of Islam that teach in the mosques get it from thier readings of the quran, what is the contridiction i refer to is Peace, Salam verses what made extremist muslims? That is the biggest contridition i have seen. Blessings ,Pam
 
Pam, I have explained it in my previous post. WHich "West" do Muslim hate? Mexico, Nicaragua and Guatemala are just as "West" as the USA, but why don't Muslim hate them? Because they don't feel oppressed by them. It is right to accuse America of all the evil in the world. No, of course no. But it is responsible of some evil.
You cannot say the Qur'an teaches hatred against the West, because the word "west" is not even mentioned there. There are some verses which instructed us to fight against the Kuffars, i.e. the unbelievers who oppress Islam. AS I told in my previous post, this is not a religious hatred, but a political one. If Muslims would hate all non-Muslims, they would hate also the pagans living in Amazonia, but they don't. Do you understand my point?
 
Also, even Christianity teaches peace and love, but still many Christians are full of hate. Go and look for islamic videos on youtube, for example, and you will see what "lovely" words do Christians write against Muslims. You said your children are Muslims, so you should feel upset by this hate as well. Now, if some Christians kill and insult in the name of their religion, you are going to tell me this is not Jesus' teaching. But if Muslims do it you say it's because of Islam?
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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struggle  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 8:46am
Originally posted by Nura

[QUOTE=Pam61]Now, if some Christians kill and insult in the name of their religion, you are going to tell me this is not Jesus' teaching. But if Muslims do it you say it's because of Islam?
 
I am thinking it is what the religion holds, because as a christian we are to believe the church is a body and jesus is the head, and another way to say is the church are the branchers and Jesus is the vine. Who ever is outside that body who kill and insult can be already seen and accepted as a unbeliever of Christ. Even they would know they are doing wrong or else they are mentally insane.
 
This is total victory through Christ who we can now accepted for his righteousness. Of course we are not perfect, and God knows this. Whenever insults are given by a mature believer of Jesus Christ, they are set away from Jesus Christ until they confessed and repented. Unless it happens all the time that would not be accepted from Jesus Christ. So As a christian, They are set aside for the sins not to reflect on the body. The rule applies for every religious body. They would have to have Jesus Christ to cover their sin from the body, which they do not know so their major sins are reflecting on their fellow believers. So the corrupt religious parts of a body has a influence on the whole religious body...
 
 
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 
Also a different translation Worldwide English version which I think becomes more easy of clarifing the verses....
 
1 But prophets who were not true were also among the people of Israel. Also there will be teachers who will not be true among you. They will bring in wrong teaching that leads to death. They will even say that they do not belong to the Master who bought them. And so they will quickly bring themselves to death. 2 Many people will do the same wrong things they do. And because of them, men will say wrong things about the true way. 3 Because they are greedy for money, they will trick you with lies. For a long time God has planned to punish them. They will be punished at the right time.
 
 
So that finished, my intentions is only to lead you into what is true. Blessings be to you only of what the lord decides...   
 


Edited by struggle - 15 January 2008 at 1:40pm
EYE FOR EYE
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Pam61  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Pam61 Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 2:27pm
Very good points, thank you for your imput. As long as muslims do not believe in the Bible as Gods word it's very hard debate it. but I am sure that if one person learns any thing from this topic and helps them with their search for truth, i will have accomplished my goals and God will be happy with me. Thanks for everyones Input. I have a book to write and get published. Good luck to all here. Blessings to You all. Pam
 
I will end once agian with Jesus said " I am the truth and the way and no man commith to the Father except thru me". also John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Pam61/Seeker of the Truth
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Faris al-Farik  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faris al-Farik Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by Pam61

In Islam I prayed 5 times and day and more. I went to umrah and hajj. I did everything i could to be a better person, but still felt there was something missing, i felt for me i needed a more personal relationship than a ritualistic one. I learned quran, it was not an easy decision and all I want for me and my family is the truth and that is what has led me to the path I am now on which happens to be Christianity. I feel i have been given another chance to get back to that relationship i so yearned for as a muslim.

 
Hi Pam 61:
 
As a recent revert to Islam, from Christianity, my experience has been the opposite. I do not experience this sense of "guilt" inculcated with the idea of Original Sin, and this notion that God could only be appeased by the sacrifical death (a barabaric depiction of it is in the New Testament) of His so-called Son -- to save humanity from the "collective" sin accumulated by the erroneous mistakes made by Adam and Eve.
 
In Islam, I found that the so-called "ritual" of prayer is one embellished by one's intent, and is a daily five-time "appointment" with the Creator of the Universe. Too bad you missed that basic aspect.
 
My disillusionment with "Pauline" Christianity came when I studied the various pagan beliefs that became incorporated with Christianity as it became Hellenized. I say "Pauline" because much of the New Testament is a collection of writings of the so-called "Apostle" Paul, who never knew Jesus in the flesh, but met him on a vision on the road to Damascus.
 
I also found no evidence of the Trinity in the Bible, but was transmitted as a "received" idea thru the ages by the various Churches. The extemporization of Christianity is nearly complete today, as it stands pitifully and woefully subdivided, morally weak and inferior to Islam or Judaism. Modern scholars are beginning to realize that the religion OF Jesus is NOT the religion ABOUT Jesus, i.e., Christianity.
 
Pardon me for being unequivocal, but then again, this is a Muslim site. You didn't think you would proselytize here, did you? Read the writings of the "White" Fathers in North Africa: it is almost impossible to convert true Muslims to Christianity, for various reasons. Study Muhammad Asad's works as well. It may be of help to you.  He was an Austrian Jew who came to Islam, and also managed a seminal translation of the Qur'an.
 
It is tragic to see that you never went past the so-called ritualistic aspects of Islam, and never understood the meaning of standing in the presence of Allah.
 
Faris al-Farik
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Faris al-Farik  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faris al-Farik Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by Khalil20

Thats what happens when you get tired of praying 5 times a day, remembering Allaah, and sick of wearing hijaab... you find excuses to water down your religion.
 
Subhan Allaah!!
 
Khalil:
 
I empathize with your sense of outrage. More so, as I am a new Muslim.
 
But, then again, our religion is the one that honors and recognizes the Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and *we* know the truth of his gospel, and how it became contaminated and corrupted.
 
Also, Islam teaches us so much about Christianity that it is baffling for me how a Muslim can even embrace Christianity!!!
 
Pam, please keep in mind that this is a Muslim forum, and not everyone is here to cater to interfaith or interreligious dialogue, no matter how important you consider it.
 
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 6:44pm
LtTony--maybe. The words are derived from the same root but they don't mean the same thing. To understand "salam" (i.e., "peace") you should understand the Hebrew "shalom." The "peace" it means is not the sort of "peace" to which I think Pam was referring. 
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 15 January 2008 at 7:18pm
 
Understood.  It's a subtle difference, IMO.  Not sure if I line up with Pam's intent here, but the reply "No it's not" rubbed me the wrong way a little, too.  Not much, mind you. Jus' a little bit.  Especially in light of these, one written by yourself:
 
Based on that, maybe even someone like Pam should get a little slack.
 
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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