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Sqaruesi
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sqaruesi Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

However D2D's quote refers specifically to the claim by one of the Muslim scholars that "I trust the Gospel and all its contents. But you altered it to be as you wanted" - a claim which, it must be admitted, has been often repeated here in words not very different!
 
To which the monk's reply included this:
 
"Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible."
 
Any comments folks?


I will comment, sure. I bet LtTony could even give this answer for me. The problem begins when the Muslim says "I trust the Gospel and all its contents." He is implying that he trusts something that actually exists. When in fact, what he trusts is what Allah swt gave to Issa (Jesus) (as), and not what is in the hands of the Christians. So he shouldn't say he trusts "the Gospel" because it leads the Monk to think that he trusts what actually appears in the Bible, and that is not the case.
 
(Why LtTony?)
 
I have no doubt that both the monk and (obviously) the Muslim scholar knew perfectly well that Muslims believe the "Gospel" to be something that no longer exists.  The interesting question, though, is whether the Muslim-defined "Gospel" existed at the time of the revelation of that ayat which calls on Christians to compare the Qur'an's teaching with the "Gospel" to see how one compares the other.
 
If it didn't exist, how could 7th-century Christians compare them, and what meaning could a call to comparison possibly have?
 
If it DID exist, where and what was it?  Was it not the same as that which Christians have always called the Gospel?  But then how could a comparison verify that the Qur'an confirms its teaching when we know they're at loggerheads on several key issues?
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Let us suppose that some people in the West had altered their Gospels. So, how did they reach those who are at the end of the earth in the East? Same thing for those who are in the North towards the South. It's impossible.


The response is only flawed because the premise (stated by the Muslim) is flawed.
 
I don't see why.  Muslims believe that God gave Jesus the true "Gospel", and that Christians have since altered it, so the question naturally arises as to when, where and how this might have happened.  We know that Christianity spread rapidly in a generation after Jesus' ministry; so unless one resorts to saying that his own disciples preached something quite different from what Jesus himself had received, the monk's enquiry makes perfect sense.
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

How did people in the West get "their Gospels?"
 
Same as people in the North, South and East got theirs - by copying and distribution from existing copies going back to the originals.
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

And why should the Muslim believe in their Gospels?
 
Same as why anyone whatsoever should.  (And there's really no "their" about it - it's substantially the same regardless of location.)  If the monk's argument is sound, that no major alteration could have taken place after the first publication of the Gospels, your question really amounts to asking whether they are true.  As argued here before, the events they report were witnessed by plenty of people still around when the (synoptic) Gospels were written, so they could and would have refuted them if radically false.
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

The Muslim believes in the Gospel from Allah swt, given to Issa.
 
As does the Christian, in a different sense -
 
"I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me" (John 17:8).
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 12 February 2008 at 10:14pm
I said LtTony because of something he said in a thread sometime in the last week or two that made me think he knew what I'd been trying to say. Your post, on the other hand, gives me the impression that you're not so sure what I've been saying.

But that's okay.

Instead of answering all your questions, I'm going to tell you something from which I think you might benefit even more. I was talking to a friend of mine, who converted to Islam about five years ago. She said to me, and I quote, "The Bible made me Muslim." In fact, she had been studying Islam for several months, and finally gave herself like a "two-week notice," she said, to make a decision. And what she did to finally decide was read the Gospels. And despite the typical interpretation among Christians of the Gospels, that they point towards a redemptive sacrifice of Jesus, she came to the conclusion, based on the Gospels (the same ones you'd read in a Bible you can pick up at Lifeway or whatever) that Jesus was a Muslim, and that Islam was the truth.

The Qur'an asks Christians to read it, and ponder over it. And because I know many former Christians who describe how the message of Jesus directed them to Islam, I think that's enough. Even though Muslims don't believe in the entirety of the message which appears in the Bible, Allah guides whom He wills.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 12:43am
I'd also note to Sqaruesi that the Qur'an refers to the 'scrolls of Abraham' in a similar manner in 53:37, yet they're obviously not something the Meccans had in their possession.

But if we are going to interpret the Qur'an as referring to the New Testament by 'Gospel', then we should ask what it would hope to achieve by doing so. The Qur'an was revealed in an oral culture, where there are no schools, libraries or any centres of learning, cheap writing material didn't exist (and there was certainly no printing press). How many people would you expect to be familiar with a book such as the New Testament in such a society? Even if we don't take into account that no Arabic translation of the New Testament existed at this time.

And even so, if the Qur'an is talking about the New Testament here, we must also ask which New Testament? The Catholic Church's canon was not the dominant one in the Middle-east in this time (and it isn't even now). The Najrani Monophysites, the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Nestorians and the Orthodox Byzantines all had their own canon; if we interpret the Qur'an to be talking about a physical book, it still doesn't clear up what book it was actually referring to.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 2:29am
I wouldn't get too deep with Sqaruesi. Unfortunately he was trying very hard to contort the argument to such an extent that there really is nowhere to start from..  Which is of course why I mentioned LtTony... who I think, for example, has a much better understanding at least of what Muslims believe.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Deserves2Die Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 6:03am
Originally posted by jimdi3

Hi D2D,
 
You probably do realise that the same may be said of the divisions in the Islamic faith. - Such violent divisions are manifest daily.
 
Now: Let me ask this. If I was to say that I believe in the Qur'an - Am I saying I believe in it or am I saying I believe in the Word of God?
 


Hey jimdi, You can refer to my Old threads regarding the Quranic view of Divisions in Islamic faith, there is no excuse for that.

It's the same like Jewish mentality which says that 'Christians say Jesus was God therefore He was an imposter and a False-god''. We Muslims on the other hand don't reject Jesus pbuh because of what Christians believe about him but correct the false Christian concept for him to Jews as well as Christians. Hope you got the point.

What does the Quran mean? القرآنal-qur'ān, literally "the recitation''. Believing in a 'recitation'' doesn't refers to any of what you have mentioned above, it is just another arabic word but very uniquely attributed & reffered by Allah to his revelation.  In the Islamic perspective, the Word refers to the Revelation given to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him by Allah through Angel Gebriel peace be upon him.

Originally posted by jimdi3

Now you do claim that the Qur'an is a volume of work relayed by St Gabriel in its original form straight from Allah?To me it is not good enough, yet that does not negate my belief in the Word of God .......


Ofcorse I believe that. It doesn't changes anything if it's not good enough for you, go bring something better than it or try to refute the book which claims to be the Word of God.



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jimdi3 Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 6:57am
 Hi D2D
 
Ofcorse I believe that. It doesn't changes anything if it's not good enough for you, go bring something better than it or try to refute the book which claims to be the Word of God.
 
I have no intention of trying to refute your book, for me I have examined it and I find it wanting for the various reasons I have discussed with forum members. I find the Rubaiyat a more soul satisfying book.
 
We Muslims on the other hand don't reject Jesus pbuh because of what Christians believe about him but correct the false Christian concept for him to Jews as well as Christians. Hope you got the point.

From what Jesus has been subjected to on this forum I can only think you pay lip service tp his teachings as you do to all the Prophets. To you there is only one Prophet whom you have included in your doxology.

It is most certain that Muslims must believe in their own perception of Jesus Christ else there would be no reason to form a substitute religion.

Hey jimdi, You can refer to my Old threads regarding the Quranic view of Divisions in Islamic faith, there is no excuse for that.

Oh D2D, I if only you balanced your arguements with that acknowledgement  when speaking to others about the divisions in Christianity.

Take care for yourself and 'her indoors' as we say in Yorkshire (England)

hype the sensationalism by capitalizing on the propensity of a few. Grotham
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sqaruesi Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 7:21am
Hi.  I was about to reply to Amy when I saw yours.
 
Before I come to it - have you taken note of my post on p. 3 of "I was reading recently"?
 
Originally posted by Kadaveri

I'd also note to Sqaruesi that the Qur'an refers to the 'scrolls of Abraham' in a similar manner in 53:37, yet they're obviously not something the Meccans had in their possession.
 
The text says -
 
053.036
YUSUFALI: Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-
PICKTHAL: Or hath he not had news of what is in the books of Moses
SHAKIR: Or, has he not been informed of what is in the scriptures of Musa?

053.037
YUSUFALI: And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-
PICKTHAL: And Abraham who paid his debt:
SHAKIR: And (of) Ibrahim who fulfilled (the commandments):

I'd suggest that whatever Abraham wrote was incorporated into the text of Genesis which we know comes in ten sections ("toledoth") marked by the phrase "These are the generations of X".
 
If this is a true analogy with what the Qur'an says about the Injil, where today (or in the 7th century) could we find its material distinctly as above (as opposed to its teaching being reworked in different words in the Qur'an or wherever)?
 
Originally posted by Kadaveri

But if we are going to interpret the Qur'an as referring to the New Testament by 'Gospel', then we should ask what it would hope to achieve by doing so. The Qur'an was revealed in an oral culture, where there are no schools, libraries or any centres of learning, cheap writing material didn't exist (and there was certainly no printing press). How many people would you expect to be familiar with a book such as the New Testament in such a society? Even if we don't take into account that no Arabic translation of the New Testament existed at this time.
 
But there were of course Arab Christians, who must have gotten the Gospels' teaching somehow.  And in an oral culture textual memory compensates for lack of written texts; it would be no sweat to memorise whole books of the Bible etc.
 
But I never said "New Testament", which rather invalidates your following remarks....
 
Originally posted by Kadaveri

And even so, if the Qur'an is talking about the New Testament here, we must also ask which New Testament? The Catholic Church's canon was not the dominant one in the Middle-east in this time (and it isn't even now). The Najrani Monophysites, the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Nestorians and the Orthodox Byzantines all had their own canon; if we interpret the Qur'an to be talking about a physical book, it still doesn't clear up what book it was actually referring to.
 
Surely they all accepted the four Gospels we have today.
 
Meanwhile let me know if my p. 3 post clears up the difficulty you saw in Paul's citation.
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sqaruesi Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

I said LtTony because of something he said in a thread sometime in the last week or two that made me think he knew what I'd been trying to say. Your post, on the other hand, gives me the impression that you're not so sure what I've been saying.

But that's okay.
 
If you say so Amy
 
However I think I do know what you're saying, and am surprised to find you suggesting otherwise
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Instead of answering all your questions
 
Just as well - seeing as those sorts of questions challenged the great Shenango; more later perhaps
 
Originally posted by Aviatrix

I'm going to tell you something from which I think you might benefit even more. I was talking to a friend of mine, who converted to Islam about five years ago. She said to me, and I quote, "The Bible made me Muslim." In fact, she had been studying Islam for several months, and finally gave herself like a "two-week notice," she said, to make a decision. And what she did to finally decide was read the Gospels. And despite the typical interpretation among Christians of the Gospels, that they point towards a redemptive sacrifice of Jesus, she came to the conclusion, based on the Gospels (the same ones you'd read in a Bible you can pick up at Lifeway or whatever) that Jesus was a Muslim, and that Islam was the truth.

The Qur'an asks Christians to read it, and ponder over it. And because I know many former Christians who describe how the message of Jesus directed them to Islam, I think that's enough. Even though Muslims don't believe in the entirety of the message which appears in the Bible, Allah guides whom He wills.
 
(I had to look up Lifeway - doesn't seem to have crossed the Atlantic in a big way yet.)
 
Any chance you could persuade your friend to join this forum?  I'd like to chat with her.
 
So - she reads the Gospels, which are 25-30% given over to the events surrounding Jesus' death and resurrection, which the Qur'an says/implies never happened, and she concludes that the Gospels teach Islam?
 
Hmm.
 
How contrastingly refreshing to recall a Muslim poster here last year say that whatever one thinks of the NT, there's no doubt it teaches the doctrine of the Trinity.
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Deserves2Die Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 10:35am
Originally posted by jimdi3

Hi D2D 
I have no intention of trying to refute your book, for me I have examined it and I find it wanting for the various reasons I have discussed with forum members. I find the Rubaiyat a more soul satisfying book.


Hey Jim. Your choice Brother. According to Your gospels, Jesus pbuh also couldn't 'satisfy'' the Jewish souls, everyone wants the Truth according to their needs, it changes nothing. We Muslims are required to differentiate between the Truth and the falsehood. We have a Judgment day awaiting.
 
Originally posted by jimdi3

From what Jesus has been subjected to on this forum I can only think you pay lip service tp his teachings as you do to all the Prophets. To you there is only one Prophet whom you have included in your doxology.It is most certain that Muslims must believe in their own perception of Jesus Christ else there would be no reason to form a substitute religion.


C'mon Jim, Islam encourage us to do Prophetic services and have Prophetic reward in the end. We preach the One same Reilgion of all Prophets ad their similar message of Monotheism and submission. Christianity since 2008 years is still confused from its very foundation, You all still can't come to an agreement that What and Who actually Jesus Christ was. Some call him God, some call a Son of God, some say just a Prophet, some day He was all in One. This is the SECTION in Christian faith.

Originally posted by jimdi3

Oh D2D, I if only you balanced your arguements with that acknowledgement  when speaking to others about the divisions in Christianity.


I have mentioned the Christian division of faith above, re-read it for me please. We Muslims believe in One GOD who's Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him as his Last and Final messenger. Sectarian exteremism is a Worse Part which again isn't based on Religion but Politics. We have Christians like 'laurian'' dropping this 'Christian' label for the sake of Christ.

Talk about Logic and neutral understanding, Christianity is a Weak Religion, it's theology is confusing and it's followers are un-informed and uneducated of their Religious 'Contradicting' literature.




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 7:19pm
Christianity since 2008 years is still confused from its very foundation, You all still can't come to an agreement that What and Who actually Jesus Christ was. Some call him God, some call a Son of God, some say just a Prophet, some day He was all in One. This is the SECTION in Christian faith.

  Christianity may be divided true, but the overall majority ( Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans ie the mainstream) agree on the following regarding Jesus Christ.  He is the Son of God, God, 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, the Messiah, died and rose again on the third day. Assended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father . Ofcourse there maybe some branches who claim to be christians such as JW who hold an altogether different gospel, but on the whole these sects can hardly be classed as mainstream some having only a few thousand members, but hey thats democracy. I could start my own denomination tomorrow teaching my perspective on Jesus Christ, i'd be free to do so, i and anyone who happens to listen and believe what i have to say may call ourselves Christian, but hold views which may very well be contrary to what is written in the NT. But i can rest assured that no other Christian denomination who dis-agrees with my theological reasoning will issue a fatwa against me.



Edited by Damo808 - 14 February 2008 at 12:42pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 13 February 2008 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Deserves2Die


Talk about Logic and neutral understanding, Christianity is a Weak Religion, it's theology is confusing and it's followers are un-informed and uneducated of their Religious 'Contradicting' literature.






  Thanks for teaching me patience D2D.

I will pray for you my brother.



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Deserves2Die Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2008 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Damo808

  Christianity may be divided true, but the overall majority ( Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans ie the mainstream) agree on the following regarding Jesus Christ.  He is the Son of God, God, 2nd person of the Holy Trinity, the Messiah, died and rose again on the third day. Assended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father . Ofcourse there maybe some branches who claim to be christians such as JW who hold an altogether different gospel, but on the whole these sects can hardly be classed as mainstream some having only a few thousand members, but hey thats democracy. I could start my own denomination tomorrow teaching my perspective on Jesus Christ, i'd be free to do so, i and anyone who happens to listen and believe what i have to say may call ourselves Christian, but hold views which may very well be contrary to what is written in the NT. But i can rest assured that no other Christian denomination who dis-agrees with my theological reasoning will issue a fatwa against me.
 
This exactly is the Point, this is the reason We don't have practicing Christians in the World, Practice what? They got nothing to practice. The Church is happy as long as You believe in Jesus (in whatever manner you want) and pay the priest every Sunday. They wouldn't issue a Fatwa against you, Why would they? You are a Christian!! You can make fun of your God, you can use his Picture for advertising Pizza, You can make and sell Adult Religious movies, You can make Films like Davinci Code (In the so called name of Freedom of Expression), Ofcorse Church will never issue a Fatwa against you. The Church preaches that Jesus pbuh was a Prince of Peace and He has Forgiven all of you, and He didn't come to Judge you neither He will Judge you in the End, His love for you is unconditional. The Church doesn't ask you to go and read it yourself in the Bible, They educate them in Churchs. All these Things including the So called Divinity of Christ  or Trinity is in absolute Contradiction with the Bible. Your "Man-god" Jesus Christ (pbuh) said in the Gospel of Mark 12:29 "Shama Israelu Adonai Ela Hayno Adonai Ekhad'' which means "Hear O Israel, The Lord Our GOD in One Lord''. Does it sound like 'O Israel Your Lord is a Triune God"? Your  Man-god in the Gospel of John, chapter 5 verse 30 said 'I can of myownself do nothing, As I hear I judge and My Judgment is just for I seek not my will but the Will of my Father''. This is your God Who is capable of nothing? What ever you mentioned regarding your Theology has no evidence or proof to back with, the Concept differs not just from Sect to Sect, but from Person to Person. Explore the Inter-Religious section and you will know it.
 
And please do me a Favor Brother, Be honet and Go to your Church, Tell your priest that "I (You) don't believe in anything regarding Jesus. weather He was God, or Son of God, or any part of Divinity, I (You) only believe that He was crucified for my Sins, and rose from the Dead, So am I (You) going to Heaven''? Ask him his answer, come back and tell me. Then I will tell you what the Bible says. I'm waiting.
 
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2008 at 4:14pm
This exactly is the Point, this is the reason We don't have practicing Christians in the World, Practice what? They got nothing to practice. The Church is happy as long as You believe in Jesus (in whatever manner you want) and pay the priest every Sunday. They wouldn't issue a Fatwa against you, Why would they? You are a Christian!! You can make fun of your God, you can use his Picture for advertising Pizza, You can make and sell Adult Religious movies, You can make Films like Davinci Code (In the so called name of Freedom of Expression), Ofcorse Church will never issue a Fatwa against you.

 Tell me...  why in a democracy where the Church has no control in governemt policy, where instances such as  mentioned above are in keeping with the law of the land do you blame the Church ? Does the church sanction it ? Did Jesus or any of the apostles when they were insulted slandered and ridiculed instruct any of their followers to respond in violence ? No. What do your moques and madrasses teach ? The maiming of innocents ?... sorry i mean infidels ? ( seeing as your comfortable with generalising)

The Church preaches that Jesus pbuh was a Prince of Peace and He has Forgiven all of you, and He didn't come to Judge you neither He will Judge you in the End, His love for you is unconditional. The Church doesn't ask you to go and read it yourself in the Bible, They educate them in Churchs.

  Hmm.. I guess they just take for granted that the attendees are mindless drones. Why would they preach something altogether un-biblical ? The NT was canonised by the church, why would there be reluctance towards any member reading into it ?

 All these Things including the So called Divinity of Christ  or Trinity is in absolute Contradiction with the Bible. Your "Man-god" Jesus Christ (pbuh) said in the Gospel of Mark 12:29 "Shama Israelu Adonai Ela Hayno Adonai Ekhad'' which means "Hear O Israel, The Lord Our GOD in One Lord''. Does it sound like 'O Israel Your Lord is a Triune God"?

24
Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.
I guess God must be wrong in this reference above then.


 Your  Man-god in the Gospel of John, chapter 5 verse 30 said 'I can of myownself do nothing, As I hear I judge and My Judgment is just for I seek not my will but the Will of my Father''. This is your God Who is capable of nothing? What ever you mentioned regarding your Theology has no evidence or proof to back with, the Concept differs not just from Sect to Sect, but from Person to Person. Explore the Inter-Religious section and you will know it.

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."



 
Genesis 16: 9-14: And the angel of the Lord said to her: Return to thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hand. 10 And again he said: I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, and it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And again: Behold, said he, thou art with child, and thou shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Ismael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. 12 He shall be a wild man: his hand will be against all men, and all men's hands against him: and he shall pitch his tents over against all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the Lord that spoke unto her: Thou the God who hast seen me. For she said: Verily here have I seen the hinder parts of him that seeth me. 14 Therefore she called that well, The well of him that liveth and seeth me. The same is between Cades and Barad.

Issiah 9:6 For a CHILD IS BORN to us, and a son is given to us, and the government is upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called, Wonderful, Counsellor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace.


Zechariah 12:8  And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.

 But a few, ohh and ofcourse see my signature.


 
And please do me a Favor Brother, Be honet and Go to your Church, Tell your priest that "I (You) don't believe in anything regarding Jesus. weather He was God, or Son of God, or any part of Divinity, I (You) only believe that He was crucified for my Sins, and rose from the Dead, So am I (You) going to Heaven''? Ask him his answer, come back and tell me. Then I will tell you what the Bible says. I'm waiting.

I don't need to ask him, i know what he would say, he would advise me that i was in grave error, and that its not for him to say who goes to heaven or hell for that matter, that decision is in God's hands only.



Edited by Damo808 - 14 February 2008 at 4:23pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 14 February 2008 at 4:20pm

And even so, if the Qur'an is talking about the New Testament here, we must also ask which New Testament? The Catholic Church's canon was not the dominant one in the Middle-east in this time (and it isn't even now). The Najrani Monophysites, the Ethiopians, the Copts, the Nestorians and the Orthodox Byzantines all had their own canon; if we interpret the Qur'an to be talking about a physical book, it still doesn't clear up what book it was actually referring to.

I was wondering if you could elaborate on this, the canon part.  You mention the "Catholic Church's canon was not the dominant one in the Middle-east in this time."  What time are we talking about?  And while Roman Catholic influence might not have been great, there are a number of (other) Catholic churches in this region, not to mention Orthodox, which has doctrine nearly identical to Catholic.
I guess what I'm asking is to provide us with different canons held by the communities you mention.
Thanks.
 
 
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