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Damo808  
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 7:40am
Originally posted by devd

Originally posted by Westwind


Originally posted by devd

[QUOTE=Westwind]

Self-appointed Apostle, Paul./QUOTE]

Fixed that for ya.

It wasn't broken.  Unlike your post.



No, sorry, it was broken. It's an historical fact, backed with literature both contemporary to Paul and of scholarly origin over the past couple-thousand years. As if anyone needs a scholar to tell them that a guy who strolls up to the actual 12 apostles and says, "hay guyz! I'm Saul of Tarsus and I'm an Apostle of Jesus, cuz, ya know, I talked to him and stuff!" is self-appointed.

But then again...I'm off topic and I apologize.

 
 
 I guess Mirwan is not the only one who likes to shoot the messenger when scripture is used to justify a position of belief.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 10:46am
Originally posted by devd

[QUOTE=Westwind]

Self-appointed Apostle, Paul./QUOTE]

Fixed that for ya.







  Not Paul again.  Why do Muslims have such dislike if not hate for the apostle Paul.

  This is worth it's own topic.

May the Love of God be With you.
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M.A.R.W.A.N
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by Damo808


†I guess Mirwan is not the only one who likes to shoot the messenger when scripture is used to justify a position of belief.



That's escapist, I have no problem with any of your "messengers", I just wanted to know who (as in a name or person, so I can verify their reliability) wrote those particular verses changing dietary laws for Christians.

The best was an answer from Westwind, which was Luke. Kindly giving me a link, it begins with a warning: "The authorís name does not appear in the book, but much unmistakable evidence points to Luke...."

Reading one further, I realize that I'm back at square one coz I can't verify anything about Luke, his own bio is dubious at best (but at least Christian scholars are forthcoming of their estimates).

So how can I reconcile anything, I don't have a verifiable origin and by nature, I don't adopt beliefs based on educated guesswork


Edited by M.A.R.W.A.N - 12 April 2008 at 3:19pm
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by scruggnut

Originally posted by eldon

 
 
Knowing that eating pork was an abomination according to the Old Testament, yet thinking that eating it was endorsed by Jesus in the New Testament, leads one into severe confusion about the VALUE of God's Laws.
 
The lawless Western society mindset is a perfect example of that confusion, where even some Christians are in favor of giving rights to sodomites, another abomination according to the Old Testament.
 
Lawless?  How silly.
 
Allright, you asked for it!  and here it is:
 

Leviticus 20: the Terrible Consequence of eating Unclean Foods!

This article is about the most astounding declaration of the Law given through Moses, contained in the Twentieth chapter of the book of Leviticus.

Here is the text of that chapter:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.

And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

=======================================================

Notice the big bold verses which IN CONTEXT plainly indicate that all manner of sexual uncleaness comes upon a land as a consequence of its people eating unclean meats!

Since this was written, nothing has changed about the constitution of unclean animals and nothing has changed about the nature of man. Thus, people who eat unclean meats are making their souls abominable unto the Most High!

Now do you realize why America and the world in general is so horribly plagued with sexual uncleaness?!!

May Allah speedily and powerfully raise up an overcoming standard against the enemy's flood of deceit which is manifested in the folly of a church world that claims it doesn't matter what you eat!

So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

Originally posted by Damo808


 I guess Mirwan is not the only one who likes to shoot the messenger when scripture is used to justify a position of belief.



That's escapist, I have no problem with any of your "messengers", I just wanted to know who (as in a name or person, so I can verify their reliability) wrote those particular verses changing dietary laws for Christians.

The best was an answer from Westwind, which was Luke. Kindly giving me a link, it begins with a warning: "The authorís name does not appear in the book, but much unmistakable evidence points to Luke...."

Reading one further, I realize that I'm back at square one coz I can't verify anything about Luke, his own bio is dubious at best (but at least Christian scholars are forthcoming of their estimates).

So how can I reconcile anything, I don't have a verifiable origin and by nature, I don't adopt beliefs based on educated guesswork


You missed the part about the Apostles, and the ECF's.  They believed these books to be inspired, but not without reason.  If Luke was suspect, they would have rejected his writings, and not included them.  Yet there isn't any such rejection. 
Just as you accept the Quran as reliable based on the word of 7th and 8th century Muslims, we accept the Biblical scriptures based on the word of Christians who knew Christ, Paul, and Luke, as well as the testimony of first and second century Christians. What you call 'educated guesswork' affects your Quran as well.
He is risen! Alleluia! Mark 16:1-6
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Damo808  
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by scruggnut

Originally posted by eldon

 
 
Knowing that eating pork was an abomination according to the Old Testament, yet thinking that eating it was endorsed by Jesus in the New Testament, leads one into severe confusion about the VALUE of God's Laws.
 
The lawless Western society mindset is a perfect example of that confusion, where even some Christians are in favor of giving rights to sodomites, another abomination according to the Old Testament.
 
Lawless?  How silly.
 
Allright, you asked for it!  and here it is:
 

Leviticus 20: the Terrible Consequence of eating Unclean Foods!

This article is about the most astounding declaration of the Law given through Moses, contained in the Twentieth chapter of the book of Leviticus.

Here is the text of that chapter:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.

And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

=======================================================

Notice the big bold verses which IN CONTEXT plainly indicate that all manner of sexual uncleaness comes upon a land as a consequence of its people eating unclean meats!

Since this was written, nothing has changed about the constitution of unclean animals and nothing has changed about the nature of man. Thus, people who eat unclean meats are making their souls abominable unto the Most High!

Now do you realize why America and the world in general is so horribly plagued with sexual uncleaness?!!

May Allah speedily and powerfully raise up an overcoming standard against the enemy's flood of deceit which is manifested in the folly of a church world that claims it doesn't matter what you eat!



 What bull !!! a church world ???? explain that one to me. And also explain how the consumption of unclean meat results in sexual uncleanliness.
 What simplification !!


 
  Leviticus talks about the Law ( covenant)  given unto Moses. However in at least 2 posts earlier on this thread i've provided verses in which God said that he will make a New Covanent. Unlike that of the Existing one at that time. Can you explain to me what this New Covenant was then ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Giovanni  
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by scruggnut

Originally posted by eldon

 
 
Knowing that eating pork was an abomination according to the Old Testament, yet thinking that eating it was endorsed by Jesus in the New Testament, leads one into severe confusion about the VALUE of God's Laws.
 
The lawless Western society mindset is a perfect example of that confusion, where even some Christians are in favor of giving rights to sodomites, another abomination according to the Old Testament.
 
Lawless?  How silly.
 
Allright, you asked for it!  and here it is:
 

Leviticus 20: the Terrible Consequence of eating Unclean Foods!

This article is about the most astounding declaration of the Law given through Moses, contained in the Twentieth chapter of the book of Leviticus.

Here is the text of that chapter:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.

And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.

And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.

But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

=======================================================

Notice the big bold verses which IN CONTEXT plainly indicate that all manner of sexual uncleaness comes upon a land as a consequence of its people eating unclean meats!

Since this was written, nothing has changed about the constitution of unclean animals and nothing has changed about the nature of man. Thus, people who eat unclean meats are making their souls abominable unto the Most High!

Now do you realize why America and the world in general is so horribly plagued with sexual uncleaness?!!

May Allah speedily and powerfully raise up an overcoming standard against the enemy's flood of deceit which is manifested in the folly of a church world that claims it doesn't matter what you eat!



  Gosh, we better start the killing. 

However if the law changed for one and not the other, none makes sense.
 

May the Love of God be With you.
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M.A.R.W.A.N
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 3:40pm
I didn't miss anything. Since when do I adopt the doubtful standards of others as a means for my beliefs? That would be insincere, and as I'm sure you were taught when young, God doesn't accept insincerity.

Please don't derail the subject with Qur'anic fiction, the comparison needs serious refinement and is off-topic. Even if you were right, it wouldn't elevate the problems I've presented.
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by scrug

What bull !!! a church world ???? explain that one to me.
 
the world as it has been shaped by the church, i.e. Western civilization.
 
And also explain how the consumption of unclean meat results in sexual uncleanliness.


It's all right there in the verses posted; after listing all those sexual sins in Leviticus 20, YHWH then says

Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

Nowhere in the chapter is unclean foods the subject until verse 25, and the therefore in that verse refers back to the sexual sins that are the main subject of the whole chapter. You cannot ignore the obvious connection.
 
 
Originally posted by scrug

Leviticus talks about the Law ( covenant)  given unto Moses. However in at least 2 posts earlier on this thread i've provided verses in which God said that he will make a New Covanent. Unlike that of the Existing one at that time. Can you explain to me what this New Covenant was then ?
 
The New Covenant is explained as taking place when the Laws of God are written in the hearts of His people.
 
The fact that most Christians are dead set against God's Laws forbidding unclean foods means that those laws are NOT written in their hearts, and is a good evidence that they are not as yet partakers of the New Covenant... howeversomuch they may think that they are.
Originally posted by Giovanni

However if the law changed for one and not the other, none makes sense.
 
Woah!  I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying?
 
Do you think the laws against those sexual sins listed in Leviticus 20 are no longer valid, as you think the laws against unclean foods are no longer valid?
 
It is an awful thing if you think so, but that is exactly the reasoning that sodomites use to justify their sin, i.e. the laws against it have been changed.

So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:18pm
This is one of the craziest things I have ever read.  This may be "your" interpretation of the Bible but it certainly is not the interpretation of Christians. 
 
First of all, "leviticus" means pertaining to the "Levites".  So these were instructions to the Israelites at that particular point in time. Some think God was trying to establish a clean blood line for Christ. God's instructions/plans are different in different periods of time, which is the only thing that makes sense to me. Muslims want to take us back to the beginning of those plans b/c this is where the Quran is stuck.  If this is the way Muslims believe, then let them believe this way as long as they aren't trying to drag others down with them and they do not physically harm others that do not agree with them.  I'm far from an expert on all of this, but commonsense alone tells me differently from what you believe.
 
In America's beginnings, Christians ate pork and almost all the people in the US were Christians and almost all of the people were virgins when they were married, didn't cheat on one another, were in church every Sunday, etc, etc, etc.  When Christians finally started following Jesus and we freed the slaves, this is when God gave us the greatest country in theh world.  The majority of Christians in the west have fallen from their faith in this day and time.  This is the reason satan has been allowed to come into our countries.  The more atheists we have here and people of other religions, the more our countries start to go downhill.  If Christians were living as they're supposed to live and making good examples, there wouldn't be many atheists, etc, in our countries.  You will notice that in every country where Christians are ignoring their faith the most, there are more atheists & others & more sin.  If your interpretation were right, our country would have never been as it once was.
 
You are a fool if you think Muslim countries are any better than the western world as far as sin is concerned.  The ONLY difference is that the western world's dirty laundry is hug up high for the entire world to see and the Muslim dictatorships try very hard to hide their sinful ways.  However, I have done a whole lot of research on this and the sinful ways is just as much in Islamic countries as anywhere else in the world, if not even worse.  Also, the Jews do not eat pork and this sin is also in their world.
 
Why are Muslims constantly trying to tell Christians how to interpret their religion?  That would be like me telling Muslims they really do not believe Muhammad was a prophet and should not believe it.  You cannot tell others how to interpret their religion. 
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by eldon

 
Originally posted by scrug

Leviticus talks about the Law ( covenant)  given unto Moses. However in at least 2 posts earlier on this thread i've provided verses in which God said that he will make a New Covanent. Unlike that of the Existing one at that time. Can you explain to me what this New Covenant was then ?
 
The New Covenant is explained as taking place when the Laws of God are written in the hearts of His people.
 
The fact that most Christians are dead set against God's Laws forbidding unclean foods means that those laws are NOT written in their hearts, and is a good evidence that they are not as yet partakers of the New Covenant... howeversomuch they may think that they are.
Originally posted by Giovanni

However if the law changed for one and not the other, none makes sense.
 
Woah!  I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying?
 
Do you think the laws against those sexual sins listed in Leviticus 20 are no longer valid, as you think the laws against unclean foods are no longer valid?
 
It is an awful thing if you think so, but that is exactly the reasoning that sodomites use to justify their sin, i.e. the laws against it have been changed.



  The New Covenant is the new relationship between God and man as mediated by Jesus.


  As far as what I was implying about the laws, it is not the sins against God  that changed, all you stated per Leviticus are grave sins against God, it was the punishment I was referring to.  So I don't know what you were implying.

May the Love of God be With you.
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Any questions I ask are to get people to think.. I came to Islam because I found major faults in Christian doctrine.  In fact I've learned more about my old religion since I reverted... than I knew before.  
 
Yes, but you need to understand that many people have left Islam & came to Christianity for the very same reasons.  So it is only a matter of someone's opinion versus someone else's opinion.  If we could all see it this way, the world would be a much more peaceful place to live.
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Damo808  
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 8:21pm

  

The following quotes are from me not scrug... something i'm probably guilty of doing myself so no big deal.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Damo808
"What bull !!! a church world ???? explain that one to me.
 
the world as it has been shaped by the church, i.e. Western civilization.
 
 Forgive me if i find this example a little vague . Sure there's aspects of  Christianity set into the foundations of the judicial system as well as the formation of government . But can you explain to me in more detail how the Christian church is responsible for moral decay if you like within modern society, which by the way is completly under secular governance unlike an Islamic theocracy, which in itself is no moral becon to the world by example.
 
And also explain how the consumption of unclean meat results in sexual uncleanliness."

Eldon:
"It's all right there in the verses posted; after listing all those sexual sins in Leviticus 20, YHWH then says

Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

Nowhere in the chapter is unclean foods the subject until verse 25, and the therefore in that verse refers back to the sexual sins that are the main subject of the whole chapter. You cannot ignore the obvious connection."
 
 I'm not ignoring anything. It seems your ignorant rather of the old covanent being replaced with the new.
 
 
Originally posted by Damo808
Leviticus talks about the Law ( covenant)  given unto Moses. However in at least 2 posts earlier on this thread i've provided verses in which God said that he will make a New Covanent. Unlike that of the Existing one at that time. Can you explain to me what this New Covenant was then ?
 
Eldon:
"The New Covenant is explained as taking place when the Laws of God are written in the hearts of His people.
 
The fact that most Christians are dead set against God's Laws forbidding unclean foods means that those laws are NOT written in their hearts, and is a good evidence that they are not as yet partakers of the New Covenant... howeversomuch they may think that they are."

 I see.... and where in scripture is this New Covenant established ?

 For in Jeremiah it states :31 Behold the days shall come, saith the Lord, and I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Juda: 32 Not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: the covenant which they made void, and I had dominion over them, saith the Lord.

 In what way was it established in their bowels ?

out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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bullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

I didn't miss anything. Since when do I adopt the doubtful standards of others as a means for my beliefs? That would be insincere, and as I'm sure you were taught when young, God doesn't accept insincerity.

Please don't derail the subject with Qur'anic fiction, the comparison needs serious refinement and is off-topic. Even if you were right, it wouldn't elevate the problems I've presented.


LOL! "Quranic fiction"?.  When will you stop with your similar "Biblical fiction"?

The issue is extremely relevant to the OP, because if we can't trust New Testament guidance on the replacement of ceremonial law, by grace, what can we trust? This is your baseline argument: If the NT is corrupt, then we must follow the Quran.

You want us to accept the Quran's superiority when every symptom of Mohammad's 'visions' indicate serious mental illness?  You want us to accept the Quran, because a lot of people memorized it?  You want us to reject the Bible, when you have no evidence of a conspiracy against it, nor evidence of a conspiracy to create a corrupt 'revelation'? 
Yet when we give you the historical facts, you ignore the facts, call it fiction, and run away. Many, many, highly educated Biblical scholars have researched this subject and they have 'refined' the evidence.  You oversimplified the argument against the New Testament scriptures, then disregarded the evidence just because Luke didn't autograph is work?  Anyone can do that, and as researchers have shown, the stylistic and  grammatical evidence for a match to the author of the Gospel of Luke is strong confirming evidence, even more so than an signature or claim of authorship.  The acceptance of contemporary Christians, is another fact.  But that's just 'fiction' to you. 
He is risen! Alleluia! Mark 16:1-6
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