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Mad Cat  
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bullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 7:49pm
Moving away from alcohol for a minute, as that is a deviation from the topic (my fault), do any Muslims know why pork is such a no no in Islam?
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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MeInUSA
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bullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Moving away from alcohol for a minute, as that is a deviation from the topic (my fault), do any Muslims know why pork is such a no no in Islam?
 
Because pigs gave people worms back in those days.
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MeInUSA
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bullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 8:07pm
Originally posted by hannah114

ok, I guess i would like to know what is the main reason people drink alcohol?  if there was an equivalent that tasted about the same that had no actual alcohol in it, do you think people would choose it? I would guess not, as alcohol does have an effect on the brain, and people look for those effects. people were drinking these things long before those articles about health benefits came around, and if its so harmless then why is there a minimum drinking age?
 
 
and yes, I have seen people drink one or two glasses of wine and show intoxication
 
Actually, they do make drinks & leave out the alcohol if you want them to and they make something called "Near Beer," or they used to a long time ago, and I used to drink it all the time.  It tasted almost just like beer and I loved the taste of beer.
 
I guess for one or two glasses of wine to have an effect on people, it would depend on the strength of the wine and the person drinking it.  But not only is a glass of wine or a drink a day good for you b/c it helps to clean your arteries, but it also calms people down and, therefore, relieves stress.
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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 8:37pm
A few points taken from this site

There has been a lot of interest in the media about the health benefits of red wine. It isn't the alcohol in the wine that provides a health benefit but the anti-oxidants, the red wine polyphenols, anthrocyanidins and resveratrol.

a long discussion with a nutrition expert who is also a wine lover (his family owns one of the large wineries in California) about the health benefits of red wine and the effects of the alcohol in it. After careful consideration, he admitted that there is no documentation or research supporting the idea that alcohol has health benefits. Alcohol, it seems is toxic to the human body and possesses no redeeming merits from a health perspective.

www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com
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Traveller  
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bullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 9:58pm
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Moving away from alcohol for a minute, as that is a deviation from the topic (my fault), do any Muslims know why pork is such a no no in Islam?
 
Muslim don't know why, just that God said it is forbidden. God did not explain why. The same with "that tree". God did not explain why Adam must not go near that tree, just "don't go near that tree".
 
But alas, the devil beguile Adam to go near that tree and alas, the people who believed in God, similarly beguile into eating pork.
 
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 12:23am
We who are the of the House of Israel, through the tribe of Joseph, also have dietary laws. 

We know that.....God does not give us temporal commandments---- for all commandments are spiritual unto him.  The idea that the swine of those days were "unclean" meant more than physically unclean....but this symbol was used as a type and shadow to teach still another concept.  The Mosaic Law taught spiritual concepts by temporal means.  The temporal means (filth of swine) taught about that which is spiritually unclean.  Sin and Worldliness

Speaking of Worldliness........

Israel and later the tribe of Judah, were not to eat with "unclean nations."  They were to live in the world and not be of it.  A main place that people would congregate and associate was when eating.  Israel/Jews were not to intermingle with who God pronounced "unclean" nor partake of that which is.   This caused Israel/Jews to separate themselves from the world and "worldliness."

They were taught not to cast their pearls (that which is holy) before swine (that which is unholy/sinful).  The swine of course is referring to gentile nations.

The great Abrahamic Covenant of which they were apart, dealt with the promises that God made to Abraham.  That the world would be blessed (with the priesthood) through Abraham's seed.  But before Israel/Jews were to accomplish this, they had to prepare themselves spiritually, and make themselves a holy nation. 

Judah's descendents were promised that they would rule over Israel (presiding through the priesthood) until Shiloh (Christ) came.  Then he whose right it was to rule.....would.  However, the High Priests during that time, refused to give up the septre to Christ and instead went about seeking ways of killing him.  Because of this they themselves became a "unholy nation."

Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses and to restore that which was lost from the days of Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham.  The Jews who accepted Christ and followed him, received the charge to take this gospel to the whole earth.  Missionary work.....to fulfill God's promise to Abraham, that through him (and this priesthood) the whole earth would be blessed.  However, even the apostles, who believed that they were the "superior race" (Covenant/Holy nation) had a hard time, casting their pearls (that which was holy) to whom they believed were swine (unholy worldly nations).

This is when Peter, received a vision, in which he was commanded to eat that which he perceived as "unclean."  This is the account of the Lord's dealings with Peter to help him understand that he was to preach the gospel to the gentiles.  This account tells how the first gentile convert, Cornelius, came to be a Christian.......


New Testament | Acts 10:9 - 15
¶ On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10  And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11  And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12  Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13  And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14  But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15  And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


New Testament | Acts 10:16 - 28
16  This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.
17  Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon's house, and stood before the gate,
18  And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.
19  ¶ While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
20  Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
21  Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?
22  And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.
23  Then called he them in, and lodged them.  And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24  And the morrow after they entered into Cæsarea.  And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.
25  And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
26  But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
27  And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together.
28  And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.





Edited by Janet Waters - 27 March 2008 at 12:29am
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 3:33am
Janet, what are you saying?
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Traveller  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 3:35am
Originally posted by MeInUSA

Originally posted by Mad Cat

Moving away from alcohol for a minute, as that is a deviation from the topic (my fault), do any Muslims know why pork is such a no no in Islam?
 
Because pigs gave people worms back in those days.
 
That is not true.
 
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mai moslemah  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 3:56am
Originally posted by MeInUSA

Originally posted by MedGirl

Originally posted by Mad Cat

Originally posted by MedGirl

Just like how people have found health benefits for drinking red wine?

I'd say the risks and unhealthiness outweigh the benefits.

People will always find excuses though.

This is where I would say common sense comes in.

In the case of both pork and red wine, some is good for you even on a regular basis but excessive consumption is bad. This is not just limited to these two things either. Excessive consumption of Beef and Coke will be bad for you too. I'm not even sure if any amount of Coke is considered good for you but the Quran doesn’t say anything about that.

The Bible says many times that drunkenness is wrong, full stop (period for the Americans) but it also acknowledges that wine does have its benefits too.

I personally don’t subscribe to the pros vs cons, scales system here. Intoxication (I assume this is what we are getting at) is merely the product of a deeper issue.

 

Between Waheed and Medgirl we have a slight conflict.

Waheed said ‘The Qur'an says that God allows what is good and beneficial, and forbids what is unbeneficial and disgusting’

But Medgirl said Just like how people have found health benefits for drinking red wine?’

Do Muslims refute the claim of benefits of pork and wine in moderation? If not then how do we equate Allah forbidding what we know does have benefit?



You misunderstood me. My point in asking: 'just like people have found health benefits for drinking red wine?' was to show that people will always find excuses for sinful practices.

I agree completely with what Waheed said. Eating or drinking forbidden things in little amounts is sinful because it goes against the Quran. Its forbidden because the risks outweigh the so called benefits that people have found, therefore making it unbeneficial. Those were the excuses that I was talking about.
 
Drinking a glass or two of wine does not make you drunk.  I wouldn't call helping to clean out your arteries a small benefit or an excuse.  I guess everyone believes differently.
 
 
yes...first u just talk about one type of alcohol which is red wine and strictly speaking this benefit is taken from the grape not from its fermentation compare these benefit with the increase in crime and destruction of family life which alcohol cause .This is sever damage to the whole community
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Mad Cat  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 5:01am

Originally posted by Traveller

Muslim don't know why, just that God said it is forbidden. God did not explain why. The same with "that tree". God did not explain why Adam must not go near that tree, just "don't go near that tree".

Originally posted by Bible NIV

Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

Do you think there is a reason Allah forbid pork or did he just do it?

Not wanting to tangent too much again, this whole alcohol thing seems to be an ‘use and abuse’ issue. The same could be said of knives, fast food, vehicles and a thousand other things. You just have to use your intelligence and self-control when using said things or the law of the land should have the right to step in before you do harm to others.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Traveller  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 6:01am

Mad Cat.

Whatever the reason may be, we are not told. We don't question the order. We just obey.
 
Hence my question. Why do lots of christians disregard this order?
 
 
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Mad Cat  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 6:49am

Hello Traveller.

Originally posted by Traveller

   Hence my question. Why do lots of christians disregard this order?

I personally eat pork products because I believe the old way was done away with. I take what is written in the NT by Jesus, Paul, Peter etc. and use what I call my intelligence. I have also tried to understand why God called some animals clean and other unclean in the OT. It is no one thing by which I have come to this decision.

Originally posted by Traveller

   Whatever the reason may be, we are not told. We don't question the order. We just obey.

I personally find this troubling. It sounds like blind faith or ‘monkey see, monkey do’. I don’t mean to be rude by that but what you say is very dangerous indeed. You leave yourself open to abuse by others you might consider superior in knowledge of Islam. At what point do you question what you do?

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 7:15am
Mad Cat.
 
Don't you get it? It is an order from GOD, the ONE who created the sun that shines on us, an order that is simple, clear and concise. Muslims just follow it. Though some may try guessing why God gave that order, the real fact is we do not know. It was never explain.
 
We don't question orders from God. If it had been us muslims, we would have just taken any heifer and sacrifice it.
 
Anyway, did Jesus said you can eat pork?
 
 
 
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Mad Cat  
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bullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 8:05am

Hello again, Traveller

Originally posted by Traveller

   Don't you get it? It is an order from GOD, the ONE who created the sun that shines on us, an order that is simple, clear and concise. Muslims just follow it. Though some may try guessing why God gave that order, the real fact is we do not know. It was never explain.

I understand what you are saying but I just think ‘We don't question the order. We just obey.’ is very dangerous.

Originally posted by Traveller

If it had been us muslims, we would have just taken any heifer and sacrifice it.

I don’t understand what you mean by the heifer thing.

Originally posted by Traveller

   Anyway, did Jesus said you can eat pork?

I have already answered this.

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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