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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Topic: I was reading recently (continued)
    Posted: 26 March 2008 at 11:00am
Not sure why this discussion was archived, but am continuing it here, insha Allah.
 
-----------------
 
His followers, at least, apparently got the message, since they wrote the New Testament verses which do elaborate on both Jesus being the Word AND on human preexistance.
 
Damo808:
 Ofcourse you mean "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made" Which obviously means Jesus is God
 
 
That is the conclusion which many arrive at, however it is not the only conclusion to be gained from such verses. "The Word" is God's plan, His Wisdom, His Will, His Power which has always been with Him and is HIS.
 
God certainly expressed and showed forth His Wisdom, Will and Power through Jesus, "the Word made flesh", yet Jesus in the most critical time of his life said to God, "not my will, but Thy will be done" showing a difference between himself and the eternal Logos (Will of God).
 
Furthermore, as Jesus defined the Father as "the only true God" and "my God and your God", it is plentifully evident that he did not intend for people to conclude that "Jesus is God".
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Damo808: 
 I see.. so you acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God ?
 for if he wasn't God's only Son, then why wasn't it phrased 'priests to God and OUR Father '?
 
In the spiritual and figurative sense, I agree that Jesus is the only born Son of God, howbeit not in the literal physical sense.
 
(Jesus is the only person whom Allah brought into being directly through the birth process. Adam, who is also called "the son of God" in Luke 3:38, was made, not born.)
 
Jesus said that God is OUR Father on several occasions and that is also an Old Testament teaching, but again He is not a Father in the literal sense of the word.
 
 
Damo808: 
 Only if seen from a non-Trinitarian viewpoint, however the trinity is expressed in many many places in the NT.. Ofcourse you'll dis-agree.
 
the trinity is inferred into the NT by some interpreters, however it is not specified by the text.
 
 Jesus did rebuke Thomas.. but please don't fudge the facts Eldon... Jesus rebukes Thomas, prior to adressing Jesus as God purely because he doubted He had actually risen from the dead in flesh. Its only when he places his fingers in Christs wounds is he convinced he's not seeing a ghost. when he says "My Lord, and my God" To which Jesus reply's "Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed"..... This should be enough to let all people know that Thomas hadn't said anything which was in any way contradictory to Jesus nature. Or are you supposing Jesus would have simply left such a blasphemous statement unchallenged if it wasn't true ?
 
Thomas' statement "my Lord and my God" is an exclamation, not necessarily an observation about the nature of Jesus.
 
As it counters Jesus own statement 11 verses previous, Thomas' exclamation is best NOT taken as a declaration of Jesus being God. 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 2:38pm
Cool I see that my thread has made it across to WI 2.0 ( thats what I'm calling it anyways )
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote MeInUSA Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by eldon

Not sure why this discussion was archived, but am continuing it here, insha Allah.
 
-----------------
 
His followers, at least, apparently got the message, since they wrote the New Testament verses which do elaborate on both Jesus being the Word AND on human preexistance.
 
Damo808:
 Ofcourse you mean "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made" Which obviously means Jesus is God
 
 
That is the conclusion which many arrive at, however it is not the only conclusion to be gained from such verses. "The Word" is God's plan, His Wisdom, His Will, His Power which has always been with Him and is HIS.
 
God certainly expressed and showed forth His Wisdom, Will and Power through Jesus, "the Word made flesh", yet Jesus in the most critical time of his life said to God, "not my will, but Thy will be done" showing a difference between himself and the eternal Logos (Will of God).
 
Furthermore, as Jesus defined the Father as "the only true God" and "my God and your God", it is plentifully evident that he did not intend for people to conclude that "Jesus is God".
 
  
 
I think what you aren't understanding is that Jesus did not come to this earth as God. He came as a man, as we can see from the below verse:
 

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:5-11

 
Before Jesus left this earth, He told his people they would understand, after He left, things they did not understand at the moment. If somebody knows where that verse is, please post it.  I can't recall right now.
 
Jesus not coming to walk this earth as God seems to really confuse Muslims.  B/c Muslims are constantly saying Jesus never claims to B divine/God N the Bible, perhaps some of the below will help.  But not only did He claim these things in the NT, but they are also written in the OT.
 
Jesus, Who is He?
    1. Jesus has two natures at the same time: divine and human at the same time.  He is both God and man (John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9).  This is called the Hypostatic Union.
    2. Jesus was born of the virgin Mary (Matt. 1:18; Luke 1:35).
    3. "He was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and fulfilled all of the Law of God (John 4:34 ; 8:29), even to the point of death (Phil. 2:8).
    4. In His death He bore the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us (Gal. 3:13). Thus in the death of Christ the sins of His people were judged (Rom. 3:23-26) and forgotten (Heb. 8:12), and the result of His act of righteousness was eternal life (Rom. 5:18).
    5. Jesus is worshiped - (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6).
    6. Jesus is prayed to - (Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2).
    7. Jesus is called God - (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
    8. He is the creator (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17); Jesus is uncreated (John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17).
  1. Verses showing Jesus is divine
    1. He is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 8:58 with Exodus 3:14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8).
    2. John 1:1,14  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."
      1. This shows that Jesus is God in flesh. 
      2. If you say that John 1:1 should be "a" god, then...
      3. If Jesus is "a" god, then isn't that polytheism?
      4. If Jesus is "a" god, then how many gods are their in JW theology?
      5. If Jesus is "a" god, then is he a true God or false god since the Bible says there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)?
      6. If Jesus is "a" god, then why does he tell people to come to him and not the Father (Matt. 11:28)?
    3. John 8:58, "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” With Exodus 3:14 "God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

A.     Jesus uses the same title for Himself that God uses of Himself.

B.      If you say that the verse is really, "I have been", then why did the Jews want to kill him -- especially when in John 10:30-33 they say they want to kill Him because He claimed to be God?  Where and what did Jesus say to cause them to think that?

    1. John 10:30-33, “I and the Father are one. 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”

 .       Re:  John 10:30-33, What was Jesus saying that caused the Jews to accuse Jesus of claiming to be God?  If you can't say, then you don't know the text or the culture well enough to address the issue of Christ's deity.

    1. John 20:27 

 .       In John 20:27 Thomas called Jesus God by saying to Jesus, "My Lord and My God".  If Jesus is not God, then why did Jesus did not correct Thomas. Four verses later, it says that this is written so you might believe that Jesus is the son of God, (John 20:31). Therefore, we can see that the term Son of God is saying that Jesus is God.

    1. Col. 2:9, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,"
    2. Phil. 2:5-7, "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
    3. Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He [The Father] says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever..."

                                .            If Jesus is not God, why does God Himself call Jesus God in Heb. 1:8? 

                                                     A.            This is a quote from Psalm 45:6 which has the best translation of "Thy Throne O God..."

  1. Other Verses
    1. John 10:30-33,"I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

                                .            Notice the Jews said, "You being a man, make yourself out to be God."  What did Jesus say that caused the Pharisees to say that Jesus was claiming to be God in John 10:30-33.  If you don't know, then you don't understand.

                                                        i.            Regarding John 10:30-33, if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh, then you are agreeing with the Jews who killed Christ because they did not accept who He really was.

    1. Col. 1:15-16, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him."

                                .            Firstborn is a transferrable title and does not necessitate being first created.  Proof of this can be seen where Manasseh is the first born (Gen. 41:51-52 and then his brother Ephraim is called the firstborn (Jer. 31:9).

        1. Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction." 
        2. Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn."
    1. 1 Cor. 1:2, "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours."

                                .            Why is the phrase "Call upon the name of the LORD" (Hebrew, YHWH, i.e., Psalm 116:4) used only of God on the OT, and translated into the Greek in the LXX as "Call upon the name of the LORD (greek, KURIOS)," applied to Jesus in the NT (1 Cor. 1:2) if Jesus is not God in flesh?

                                                                                i.            The LXX is the septuagint which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament done by Jews around 200 B.C.

                                                                               ii.            Psalm 116:4, "Then I called upon the name of the Lord [YHWH]: "O Lord [YHWH], I beseech Thee, save my life!"

                                                                             iii.            The literal translation of 1 Cor. 1:2 is "...call upon the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ." 

                                                                            iv.            For more information, please see http://www.carm.org/jw/nameofLord.htm

  1. Son of God, Son of Man

A.     Does the term "Son of God" mean that Jesus is not God? If so, then does the term "Son of Man" mean that Jesus is not a man?

B.      Likewise, if the term "Son of Man" means that Jesus is a man, then what does the term "Son of God" imply?

  1. The Resurrection of Christ

0.      Jesus rose in the same body that He died in (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:36-43). Jesus' body is ‘resurrected.' We do not know exactly what His body is like, but the nature of the resurrected body is discussed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:35-58.

                                .            John 2:19-21, "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." 20 The Jews replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body."

                                                     A.            Luke 24:39,  "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

                                                      2.            Right now Jesus is in heaven, still as, and eternally to be both God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Col. 2:9).

                                                        .            This is important because Jesus is the High Priest forever: "where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek,” (Heb. 6:20). A spirit cannot be a high priest, only a man can do that. Furthermore, Jesus always lives to make intercession for us "Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them," (Heb. 7:25).
 

 

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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 11:05am
I think what you aren't understanding is that Jesus did not come to this earth as God. He came as a man...
 
I very well understand that, and furthermore understand that even after the resurrection according to the gospels, he told us that the One he called Father is his God and our God.
 
He never exalted himself as God while here upon earth, but rather exalted the One he called Father as "the only true God".
 
That should be enough for all people of faith to agree upon, and enough of a response to the lengthy cut and paste you posted.
 
(Jesus never exalted himself as God AFTER he left the earth either:  Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever, remember? 
 
John 16:12,13 (to which you referred without remembering) is no justification for promoting Jesus-is-God doctrine.)
 
 
 
Peace be upon those who love the Truth Jesus conveyed.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 11:07am
Good post eldon..i agree
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 11:18am

 

"...furthermore understand that even after the resurrection..."

 
So was there a resurrection?
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 4:07pm
Well posted USA....
 
...  If we were living 2,000 yrs in the future and someone uncovered a 70's sci-fi space space adventure novel. It would be the equivalent of future literary scholars  trying to argue that was set in the desert because there were a few referrences to sand.
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2008 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by LtTony

 

"...furthermore understand that even after the resurrection..."

 
So was there a resurrection?
 
according to the gospels, as the original quote stipulated, yes.
 
so the pertinent question is, why don't christians take the word of the resurrected Jesus as authoritative?  He said his God and YOUR God is the Father.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2008 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by LtTony

 

"...furthermore understand that even after the resurrection..."

 
So was there a resurrection?
 
according to the gospels, as the original quote stipulated, yes.
 
so the pertinent question is, why don't christians take the word of the resurrected Jesus as authoritative?  He said his God and YOUR God is the Father.
 
We do, as well as the words of the apostles and sacred tradition.  You may or may not be aware' but damo and I  hold a faith (catholic) that is based on sacred scripture AND sacred tradition.
 
But more importantly -- so there WAS a resurrection?
 
 


Edited by LtTony - 28 March 2008 at 1:12pm
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2008 at 2:41pm
Thomas, a jew, would never have uttered 'My G_D' in exclamation. The name of G_D is sacred and not taken lightly by jews.

It is therefore quite apparent that Thomas was indeed referring to Jesus as 'his G_D'; not exclaiming 'my god'.
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 12:41pm

Thomas' declaration would have been one of wonder in exclamation, not of derogatory exclamation.

In any case, he was in no position to make a theological pronouncement counter to Jesus' own statement, 11 verses earlier.

So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by LtTony

 
 You may or may not be aware' but damo and I  hold a faith (catholic) that is based on sacred scripture AND sacred tradition.
 
 
I was raised Catholic myself and now realize that traditions that men hold as sacred are not necessarily in accord with Scripture.
 
 
But more importantly -- so there WAS a resurrection?
 
 
 
Yes, according to the gospel accounts, Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected in a glorified body that still bore the wounds of crucifixion.
 
The Quran is silent on the subject of the appearance of Jesus after the crucifixion event in which the Jews thought to kill him but Allah raised him up to Himself.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by eldon

Thomas' declaration would have been one of wonder in exclamation, not of derogatory exclamation.

In any case, he was in no position to make a theological pronouncement counter to Jesus' own statement, 11 verses earlier.

 
 
 So in actual fact what your saying is Thomas was a little loose with His Idolotry. After all it amounts to no less when attributing the title of God to a mere human. Further if he was inaccurate by his theological pronouncement to Jesus face and speaking directly to Him, wouldn't you have thought it strange that Jesus makes clear that what He said was in no way incorrect in His reply ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by eldon

I think what you aren't understanding is that Jesus did not come to this earth as God. He came as a man...
 
I very well understand that, and furthermore understand that even after the resurrection according to the gospels, he told us that the One he called Father is his God and our God.
 
He never exalted himself as God while here upon earth, but rather exalted the One he called Father as "the only true God".
 
That should be enough for all people of faith to agree upon, and enough of a response to the lengthy cut and paste you posted.
 
(Jesus never exalted himself as God AFTER he left the earth either:  Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever, remember? 
 
John 16:12,13 (to which you referred without remembering) is no justification for promoting Jesus-is-God doctrine.) 
 
 
 
MeInUSA's post addressed all the points you raised I believe.  And John 16 is certainly part of the picture, despite your denial.
 
I also like the point you brought up too, damo.
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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