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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 8:21pm
"But more importantly -- so there WAS a resurrection?"
 
 Yes, according to the gospel accounts, Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected in a glorified body that still bore the wounds of crucifixion.
 
The Quran is silent on the subject of the appearance of Jesus after the crucifixion event in which the Jews thought to kill him but Allah raised him up to Himself.
 
Can you elaborate a bit please?  Do you believe the gospel accounts?  Was there a crucifixion?
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 10:06pm
 
Originally posted by LtTony

 
 You may or may not be aware' but damo and I  hold a faith (catholic) that is based on sacred scripture AND sacred tradition.
 
eldon: I was raised Catholic myself and now realize that traditions that men hold as sacred are not necessarily in accord with Scripture
 
Great, then you understand the concepts of sola scriptura,  the church and apostolic authority.  What traditions specifically are not in accord with scripture?
 
Here's my take: "Is Scripture the sole rule of faith for Christians? Not according to the Bible. While we must guard against merely human tradition, the Bible contains numerous references to the necessity of clinging to apostolic tradition."
 
Jesus gave all authority to his Apostles (Mt 18:18). n fact, he gave Peter the "keys to the kingdom of heaven."(Matthew 16:18–19). Christ didn't write a word; He established a church, one that has authority and His protection. (1 Tim 3:15 and Mt 16: 18) (also see:
  1. Acts 5:34-39
  2. In Mat 28:19-20 Christ says that he will be with us always.
  3. In John 10:28-29 Christ tells us that his sheep cannot be snatched from his (or his Father's) hand. The flock cannot be lost.
  4. In John 14:18 Christ says he will not leave us orphaned, and thus we will assume that he will always give the Church guidance.
  5. In Luke 2:30-33 the angel promises that there will be no end to Christ's kingdom.
You are correct in saying that we are to reject "traditions of men that maketh void the word of God", however, the Bible explicitly tells us to "hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
 
"I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you." I Corinthians 11:2
 
"We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ to shun any brother who conducts himself in disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us." 2 Thessalonians 3:6  (Might want to take a look at 2 Peter 3:13-18.)
 
Jesus gave the authority to teach in His name to the Apostles (Matthew 10:20; Luke 10:1; Luke 10:16) and promised that the Holy Spirit would protect them from ever teaching error (John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:13; 17:17-19; Luke 21:33).
Jesus further promised that the fruit that the Apostles bore (i.e., the Bishops they appointed and the Church that He built on them (Ephesians 2:19-22)) would remain faithful (John 15:16). The Apostles in turn taught (again, without error) that they had the authority to pass that office on to their successors, in my opinion.
 
 
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 11:33am
Originally posted by LtTony

What traditions specifically are not in accord with scripture?
 

The trinity. Jesus and his disciples never used the word, yet by 500AD it had become the most important doctrine of Christianity, as per the Athanasian Creed.

Consider the raucous ongoings of the Counsel of Nicea, where the Trinity doctrine was decided upon, and consider all the turmoil among Christians since then because of that doctrine... even Christians putting other Christians to death over it.  Then tell me that that doctrine is any part of The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. James 3:17,18

The Spirit of Truth sent correction to the Church from the inception of trinitarianism, but that correction was rejected even when formalized by the Revelation of the Quran.
 
Today what remains of Christianity is a highly scattered flock, all holding to the truth that Jesus is the Messiah, but divergent from Scripture in many respects and at odds even with one another.
 
Unity of faith is found, for all believers, in Islam: submitting our wills to all the Revelations of the Most High and conforming our hearts in genuine worship.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by LtTony

"But more importantly -- so there WAS a resurrection?"
 
 Yes, according to the gospel accounts, Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected in a glorified body that still bore the wounds of crucifixion.
 
The Quran is silent on the subject of the appearance of Jesus after the crucifixion event in which the Jews thought to kill him but Allah raised him up to Himself.
 
Can you elaborate a bit please?  Do you believe the gospel accounts?  Was there a crucifixion?
 
Yes, I believe the gospel accounts:  to all on the scene it appeared that the Jews were successful in having Jesus put to death, even as the gospel writers reported.
 
However, even the New Testament elaborates greatly on what spiritually happened on the cross, which was certainly NOT the Jews taking Jesus' life:
 

In opposition to the Word-made-flesh PURE nature of Jesus, these verses describe a definite change in identity that took place on or before the cross:

2Corinthians 5:21 "God made him (Jesus) to be SIN"

(If Allah made Jesus to BE sin, then it was not the holy prophet Jesus who died on the cross, but the body of sin.)

Romans 6:6 "our old man is crucified with, that the body of sin might be destroyed"

Colossians 2:14 ~"the writ (legal document) of our transgressions against the Law was nailed to the cross"~

Ephesians 2:16 "enmity to the law was slain on the cross"

Romans 8:3 "God sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

(The first Adam was made in the likeness of Yah, the second Adam was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, which is what perished on the cross.)

All of those verses indicate that it was NOT the Word made flesh that died on the cross, but something else entirely: sin, enmity, transgression against the Word, the old fallen nature of man, the likeness of sinful flesh.

The verses above affirm the Quran's brief commentary "they killed him not, nor crucified him only a likeness of that was shown to them" and it affirms a substitution on the cross that most Muslims believe in, howbeit not in every particular detail, since there is some disagreement among Muslims as to who exactly was crucified (a disciple, Judas, Simon of Cyrene, Barabbas).
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by eldon

However, even the New Testament elaborates greatly on what spiritually happened on the cross, which was certainly NOT the Jews taking Jesus' life:
 

In opposition to the Word-made-flesh PURE nature of Jesus, these verses describe a definite change in identity that took place on or before the cross:

2Corinthians 5:21 "God made him (Jesus) to be SIN"

(If Allah made Jesus to BE sin, then it was not the holy prophet Jesus who died on the cross, but the body of sin.)

Romans 6:6 "our old man is crucified with, that the body of sin might be destroyed"

Colossians 2:14 ~"the writ (legal document) of our transgressions against the Law was nailed to the cross"~

Ephesians 2:16 "enmity to the law was slain on the cross"

Romans 8:3 "God sending His own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"

(The first Adam was made in the likeness of Yah, the second Adam was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, which is what perished on the cross.)

All of those verses indicate that it was NOT the Word made flesh that died on the cross, but something else entirely: sin, enmity, transgression against the Word, the old fallen nature of man, the likeness of sinful flesh.

The verses above affirm the Quran's brief commentary "they killed him not, nor crucified him only a likeness of that was shown to them" and it affirms a substitution on the cross that most Muslims believe in, howbeit not in every particular detail, since there is some disagreement among Muslims as to who exactly was crucified (a disciple, Judas, Simon of Cyrene, Barabbas).


Eldon, you seem to be mixing metaphors again. The verses you cite explain what happened on the cross, not the agency by which it happened. In a very real sense, we both crucified him and were crucified with him. Our sin drove him to the cross, our sin nature was nailed to the cross with him. Both are true, and this fact is what is being explained by the verses you misinterpret so well.

Please consider the complete thought in 1 Cor. 5-

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit that God was, in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Paul is simply explaining the nature we received when we trusted in Christ and what had to happen to make that new nature available to us.

I realize that this response will in no way end the argument, but since God is glorified in our weakness, just think of how much room I'm giving God to glorify himself.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 5:36am
 
Thank you for your posts squeegie and eldon.  I appreciate the time you took, squeegie, to put together a thorough "mixing metaphors" reply.
 
eldon:
 
"But more importantly -- so there WAS a resurrection?"
 
 Yes, according to the gospel accounts, Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected in a glorified body that still bore the wounds of crucifixion.
 
To clarify, eldon, are the gospel accounts of Christs death and resurrection accurate?  Was Christ actually/physically killed, and did He rise from the dead? 
 
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 5:54am

What traditions specifically are not in accord with scripture?
 
The trinity....


 
OK.  I think you wrote that the word trinity is not mentioned in scripture.  Well, as someone said here before, neither is monotheism, or communion, or a lot of things.
 
But I think we can let that whole trinity deal pass for now.  I was wondering a couple of things:  one, are there any other traditions that you object to, and two, what did you think of the passages I provided on tradition, Christ giving authority to His apostles and His promises to protect the church?
 
One other thing....  do you think Jesus or His apostles ever testified that He was the Son of God; I mean, THE Son of God?  If so, what do you make of those passages?
 

Today what remains of Christianity is a highly scattered flock, all holding to the truth that Jesus is the Messiah, but divergent from Scripture in many respects and at odds even with one another.
 
Unity of faith is found, for all believers, in Islam


I thought I'd just throw my two bits in on this one.  It comes up here now and then.  While there are significant differences and independence in christian faith communities, they share nearly all of the essential and fundamental doctrines, IMO.  Interacting on this board has really opened my eyes to how much we have in common, in fact.  I've also seen a near equal amount of theological diversity among adherents of Islam.
 
 
 
 


Edited by LtTony - 31 March 2008 at 5:59am
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:06am

Squeegie (Faith1?), I'll make it even simpler:

Jesus was the Pure Word of God made flesh, right?

What was slain on the cross was NOT the Pure Word of God made flesh, according to those New Testament verses I posted previously, right?

So, it appeared as though the Jews were successful in their plan to have Jesus killed by crucifixion, but the glorious reality is that they did not kill or crucify him, but it was only made to appear so, as actually a substitution was made. Your focus is more on the appearance of what happened rather than the glorious reality.
 
As it says elsewhere in the NT, it was not possible that death could hold him, but that he cried out unto Him that was able to save him from death and he was heard in that he feared. (Acts 2:24, Hebrews 5:7)
 
If we had been on the scene, insha Allah, all we would have been able to see was that Jesus was nailed to a cross, we would have heard him cry out, Father into Thy hands I commend my spirit, and "give up the ghost". If we'd been able to check his pulse, I don't think we'd find one. If we could have hooked him up to an EKG machine, I don't think there'd be any brain waves found. Any physician then present would likely have pronounced him dead.
 
But no human there present could see the substitution that had been made-- it was a spiritual reality only made known by Revelation well after the fact.
 
It was written that Jesus should taste death for every man-- not that death should swallow him-- but that death itself would be swallowed up in victory. I understand that Christians insist on the death of Jesus on the cross and his subsequent resurrection, however they should not overlook the New Testament verses I posted that provide a bridge of accord with the Revelation in the Quran on the subject:
 
The Jews (and the demonic forces that inspired them) ultimately did not kill or crucify Jesus though they certainly wished to, tried to and apparently DID. If they had known what they were really doing, the NT tells us, they would not even have tried to kill him (1Corinthians 2:7,8), as their bid for victory over Jesus was transformed to their utter defeat and ultimate condemnation.
 
(LtTony, I think I answered your questions on the death & resurrection)


Edited by eldon - 31 March 2008 at 11:09am
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:26am
Originally posted by LtTony

one, are there any other traditions that you object to?
 
transubstantiation, mandatory celibacy for priests, nuns, & brothers, supremacy of Rome, Immaculate Conception of Mary, "the Mother of God" title, altars to saints, crucifix on the altar, bowing before statues and images, allowance of eating unclean foods, bingo, and probably a lot of others I can't think of offhand...
 
Originally posted by LtTony

and two, what did you think of the passages I provided on tradition, Christ giving authority to His apostles and His promises to protect the church?
 
Those traditions mentioned were specific to the context of the verses, not a general endorsement of all traditions.
 
I have no doubt that the Spirit of Truth has been faithful to lead believers in Jesus into all Truth, yet not all believers in Jesus have followed the Spirit of Truth's guidance.
 
Jesus described a strait and narrow path that leads to eternal life and cautioned us, "few there be that find it". He also foretold that, if possible, the very elect would be deceived.
 
Proverbs tells us that it is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings is to search out a matter. Searching the Scriptures and seeking the guidance of the Most High through the Spirit of Truth has led me to make the stand I make, believing in all His Revelations.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 11:39am
Originally posted by LtTony

One other thing....  do you think Jesus or His apostles ever testified that He was the Son of God; I mean, THE Son of God?  If so, what do you make of those passages?
 
 
Yes, of course he did and they did.
 
However, neither he nor they meant that he was the Son of God in the literal sense, i.e. the product of divine semen and human egg (astagfirullah).
 
He was the only born (spiritual) Son of God in that Adam, who is also called the Son of God in the Bible, was not born, but was made.
 
The other "Sons of God" mentioned in the Bible were either incorporeal when the foundations of the earth were laid (Job 38:4-7) or "born again" sons of God by faith (John 1:12,13). 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 1:47pm
 
 
 
Yes, of course he did and they did.
 
However, neither he nor they meant that he was the Son of God in the literal sense, i.e. the product of divine semen and human egg (astagfirullah).
 
He was the only born (spiritual) Son of God in that Adam, who is also called the Son of God in the Bible, was not born, but was made.
 
The other "Sons of God" mentioned in the Bible were either incorporeal when the foundations of the earth were laid (Job 38:4-7) or "born again" sons of God by faith (John 1:12,13). 
 
 
 I believe that it is only Muslims who hold the view that if God were indeed to have a Son, the only way this would be possible would be through some divine copulation or otherwise impossible, whilst holding the very same belief that Allah need only say "be" for the impossible to occur.
 
 John 9:35-39: Jesus heard that they had cast him out: and when he had found him, he said to him: Dost thou believe in the Son of God? < Note he doesn't say, 'Do you believ that i am of the sons of God, but the "Son of God"

36 He answered, and said: Who is he, Lord, that I may believe in him? 37 And Jesus said to him: Thou hast both seen him; and it is he that talketh with thee. 38 And he said: I believe, Lord. And falling down, he adored him. <ie worshipped Him

Or even in John 10: 33 "The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 (What) Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God?"

 Not 'a' son of God, not of the 'sons' of God. But "the Son". Neither does he point out to the Jews that they were wrong in their assertation that he made Himself God in what He said. He never exactly said... ' Now wait a minute, how exactly did i say i made myself God", The people he was debating with were no mugs... they knew the controversy of what he was pitching and he made no attempt to distance himself from it.
 
 Then there's the Transfiguration mentioned in Mathew Mark and Luke which describes Jesus being accompanied with Moses and Elijah. Note it is Christ who is described as transformed to that resembling the figure mentioned in Daniel and Revelations not Moses and Elijah, obviously implying His prominence even above these Prophets of profound importance. 


Edited by Damo808 - 31 March 2008 at 1:48pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 10:58pm
Originally posted by eldon

Squeegie (Faith1?), I'll make it even simpler:

Jesus was the Pure Word of God made flesh, right?

What was slain on the cross was NOT the Pure Word of God made flesh, according to those New Testament verses I posted previously, right?

So, it appeared as though the Jews were successful in their plan to have Jesus killed by crucifixion, but the glorious reality is that they did not kill or crucify him, but it was only made to appear so, as actually a substitution was made. Your focus is more on the appearance of what happened rather than the glorious reality.
 
As it says elsewhere in the NT, it was not possible that death could hold him, but that he cried out unto Him that was able to save him from death and he was heard in that he feared. (Acts 2:24, Hebrews 5:7)
 
If we had been on the scene, insha Allah, all we would have been able to see was that Jesus was nailed to a cross, we would have heard him cry out, Father into Thy hands I commend my spirit, and "give up the ghost". If we'd been able to check his pulse, I don't think we'd find one. If we could have hooked him up to an EKG machine, I don't think there'd be any brain waves found. Any physician then present would likely have pronounced him dead.
 
But no human there present could see the substitution that had been made-- it was a spiritual reality only made known by Revelation well after the fact.
 
It was written that Jesus should taste death for every man-- not that death should swallow him-- but that death itself would be swallowed up in victory. I understand that Christians insist on the death of Jesus on the cross and his subsequent resurrection, however they should not overlook the New Testament verses I posted that provide a bridge of accord with the Revelation in the Quran on the subject:
 
The Jews (and the demonic forces that inspired them) ultimately did not kill or crucify Jesus though they certainly wished to, tried to and apparently DID. If they had known what they were really doing, the NT tells us, they would not even have tried to kill him (1Corinthians 2:7,8), as their bid for victory over Jesus was transformed to their utter defeat and ultimate condemnation.
 
(LtTony, I think I answered your questions on the death & resurrection)


Eldon, I'm unfamiliar with a Faith 1. Let me take your points one at a time and give my take.

2Corinthians 5:21 "God made him (Jesus) to be SIN"

Again, you must look at this verse in light of the surrounding text. We are new creatures because of what Jesus did on the cross by becoming sin, the holy one who knew no sin, to make the perfect payment required .

Romans 6:6 "our old man is crucified with, that the body of sin might be destroyed"


As I said before, not only did our sin cause him to be crucified, but we were also crucified with him. That portion of ourselves that tends to rebel died on the cross with him. But because our new nature is housed in the same shell that contained the old nature, sin will occur for as long as we draw breath. But we are no longer controlled by sin. We now have the ability, as per the new nature, to live as God requires. When we sin, we are doing something against our nature. And for me this serves as an indicator of that transformation, because now, when I do sin, it doesn't satisfy. Now sin leaves me unsatisfied, broken, and empty. This is proof that a change has happened. My sin nature has been destroyed, the body of sin.

Colossians 2:14 ~"the writ (legal document) of our transgressions against the Law was nailed to the cross"~

This is just another way of saying that the charges against us have been dropped based on what Christ did on the cross.

Ephesians 2:16 "enmity to the law was slain on the cross"

Enmity is antagonism, bitter feelings. So when we receive that new nature I spoke of, the Law ceases to be something the standards of which we will never meet, thereby showing us our miserable condition resulting in resentment toward the law for telling us the truth about ourselves. The Law no longer condemns but encourages.



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 8:32am

Colossians 2:14 ~"the writ (legal document) of our transgressions against the Law was nailed to the cross"~

This is just another way of saying that the charges against us have been dropped based on what Christ did on the cross.

 Well according to this we all have blanket immunity.Why should it matter wheter I believe in this or not ,my debt has already been paid and I am a free man .And since I have blanket immunity I should be able do whatever I please to do as I am above the law now .Surely jesus also cleansed my sins(past ,present and future) aswell when he was crucified and knew what all sins I am going to commit and scarificied himself for them .So all in all technically speaking I am free to roam the earth doing whatever I wish to do .No law applies to me asJesus took the hit for me

 Final thought what seems to good to be true usually is
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 11:05am

Colossians 2:14 ~"the writ (legal document) of our transgressions against the Law was nailed to the cross"~

Originally posted by Squeegie

This is just another way of saying that the charges against us have been dropped based on what Christ did on the cross.

Originally posted by desertdude


 Well according to this we all have blanket immunity.Why should it matter wheter I believe in this or not ,my debt has already been paid and I am a free man .And since I have blanket immunity I should be able do whatever I please to do as I am above the law now .Surely jesus also cleansed my sins(past ,present and future) aswell when he was crucified and knew what all sins I am going to commit and scarificied himself for them .So all in all technically speaking I am free to roam the earth doing whatever I wish to do .No law applies to me asJesus took the hit for me

 Final thought what seems too good to be true usually is
 
Yes, that is exactly the case, desert dude.  (thanks for starting this thread, by the way!)
 
The loose "my sins are forgiven" attitude prevailed so much in Christianity that it pretty much made the teachings of Jesus about living righteously to be overlooked.
 
And that's why Allah turned people away from idolizing the cross through the Quran, and once again re-emphasized the importance of not just believing but DOING right.
 
His forgiveness and Mercy are available to anyone who turns away from sin, but people who presume to continue in sin --based on the idea of Jesus providing forgiveness through the cross-- are going further astray.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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