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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:39pm

Originally posted by desertdude

Ok squeegee, Again I understand what you’re saying, but basically, your just repeating what you said in your previous post.

 

Desert, unfortunately I can only speak for my own experience. I tried to give examples of how I know salvation works. I don’t have direct access to the mind of God to fully understand the means by which trusting in Christ results in a life-giving change. But in order for it to work, I need not understand all the details. I have given birth twice in my life and though I’m very familiar with what it’s like to be pregnant, I do not understand all the inner workings of that process. But then, I don’t need to. All that matters is that nine months later I could hold my son and daughter in my arms.



 

Originally posted by desertdude

Although one thing I found interesting is when you say "It stands or falls on the point of the resurrection. If it in fact happened, then it's all true, salvation is available for those who believe"
 What I wanna know is why, let say for the say of argument the resurrection didn’t happen. Does everything Jesus did, preach all the guidance he gave, all the miracles he performed stand for nothing? Are you saying his life was in vain and that only the resurrection puts a stamp of approval on his life?

 

 

If the resurrection didn’t happen, then we would likely not be having this exchange of thought. Peter, James and John would have gone back to fishing, as we saw in Luke’s gospel. And Luke probably wouldn't have written a gospel. The Church would never have taken off like it did because there was nothing about it that would touch every person who considered the words of Jesus. Yes, Jesus’ words and thoughts were impressive and probably without parallel, but without something to galvanize his followers into evangelism dynamos, we’d probably recall Jesus as often as we do John C. Fremont (James Buchanan’s opponent in the 1856 national election.). I am not saying that his life was vain for saying what he did and living as he did, but he also said he came to give his life as a ransom for many. If he didn’t in fact do so, then his reliability as a messenger of God is in question. Are God’s messengers in the habit of not living up to their word?

 


 

Originally posted by desertdude

What I am trying to say is why do i HAVE to believe in the crucifiction, as Jesus did sacrifice himself for all humanity Past, present and future ok you say it does not offer me blanket immunity ( which I think is kinda hypocritical BTW )What about all the people who we went before Christ .What about them .They had no idea about what was going to happen ,Humanity in general wasn’t aware of a future Jesus ,What happens them ?

 

Crucifiction? Ha ha, cute. I did not say it doesn’t offer blanket immunity. I said that once we are saved, we take the entire matter of sin far more seriously and begin taking measures to work it out of our lives, said measures looking very much like confession and repentance. God invites us to be involved in the process. The folks who came before Christ had prophets who told them of a coming messiah. If they believed that messiah would be sent, God credits them with trusting in him. And that’s where it all comes together. God is asking us to trust him where his plan for salvation is concerned. How do we express that trust? By believing that Jesus did what his disciples said he did, what the five hundred witnesses to the risen Christ said they saw, by living in such a way that our life shows we believe

 

Originally posted by desertdude

Also my question remains unanswered that god made people go thru such a strict code before Jesus and then felled it down in one swift swoop. Isn’t that kinda seriously unfair that nowadays all you need to do is believe in Christ and live a moderately decent life and you should be quite certain for a one way ticket to heaven ,and ppl of the past had to adhere to the LAW which according to modern day Christianity was so strict that god had to abolish it cuz it was so strict that no one could follow it strictly and was source of constant sin

 

Part of the reason the law was so strict was to emphasize the fact that there is no way we can keep it of our own will. Even if God made it easier with only one commandment (Thou shalt not eat meat on Fridays during months that end in ‘y’ or ‘r’), there would still be people who craved a steak at the end of the week twelve months out of the year. Also, remember that the entirety of the law was not strictly God-authored. There were well-meaning rabbis who amplified the original commandments to the point that it had become more of a burden than anything else. I personally still feel obliged to keep the commandments, though I sometimes do so less than perfectly. But we’re(God and I together) working on it



Edited by Squeegie - 03 April 2008 at 9:41pm
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 9:59am
As for the cross, Jesus said No man can be my disciple unless he takes up his cross and follows me. That takes emphasis off of Jesus' cross onto each individual believer's cross! 
 
Originally posted by LtTony

"Takes the emphasis off Jesus' cross."  Wow.  I'm not even going to ask what part of scripture you back that up with...
 
It's right there in what Jesus said:  No man can be my disciple UNLESS he takes up his cross. It's not enough for Christians to just believe in Jesus' cross, but they have to take up their own cross as well.
 
Originally posted by LtTony

Are the views and reasoning you express essentially those of "typical muslims"? "Orthodox Islam"? 
 
All Muslims believe that we have to submit our wills to Allah and suffer trials and testings, persevering despite hardship, overcoming doubt and uncertainty through faith. That equates to the principle of "taking up your cross", though Islam doesn't endorse the term "cross".
 
And all Muslims believe that Jesus submitted himself to Allah's Will and taught the Truth to his disciples about keeping even the least commandments.
 
Not all Muslims were Christians beforehand like me though, so they don't necessarily share my exact perspective about what's written in the Bible.
 
Thanks for your remarks and responses as well.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:13pm

 

"As for the cross, Jesus said No man can be my disciple unless he takes up his cross and follows me. That takes emphasis off of Jesus' cross onto each individual believer's cross!"
 
Originally posted by LtTony

"Takes the emphasis off Jesus' cross."  Wow.  I'm not even going to ask what part of scripture you back that up with..."
 
It's right there in what Jesus said:  No man can be my disciple UNLESS he takes up his cross. It's not enough for Christians to just believe in Jesus' cross, but they have to take up their own cross as well.
 
Of course the words are there, but THEY DO NOT impart the message you are claiming.  I'm sorry, but to think so is an embarrassing and illiterate interpretation.  I just have to shake my head.  There are a lot of things in Islam that make sense; this just isn't one of them
Yes, we have to take up our own crosses to follow Jesus.  But that is an OBVIOUS metaphor.  It doesn't mean that Jesus expects His followers to LITERALLY pick up a wooden cross.  NOR does it place this metphorical act equal to what was accomplished on THE CROSS.   Bearing "a cross" is part of our faith, but it is NO WHERE NEAR what took place on Calvary.
 
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:21pm
Dude wrote: "techinally speaking we muslims are more chirstian than chirstians them self"
 
Yes, we noticed that attitude, LOL.
 
 
Dude wrote: But somehow that seems like something way too easy.
 
But elsewhere on the board, (waheed or eldon, I think; or someone on the "pork question") posted that Christianity teaches a difficult  and narrow path.  So which is it -- easy or difficult?  You guys need to get your stories straight.
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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M.A.R.W.A.N
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2008 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by LtTony

But elsewhere on the board, (waheed or eldon, I think; or someone on the "pork question") posted that Christianity teaches a difficult  and narrow path.  So which is it -- easy or difficult?  You guys need to get your stories straight.



Obviously, you're not the sharpest tool but I pity this monstrous disorientation. Please cast your functional eyes back to reality.

Let's ignore the possibility that all muslims are robots made at WIPU (Why Islam Processing Unit). Let's pretend that Muslims are people, who are made up of individuals that possess differences. Differences like....pfft , I don't know....gender, personality, experience, knowledge, thoughts, opinions, etc.

Then let's pretend you haven't frequented this forum in what seems to be like forever so that we don't have to conclude how obtuse it is for person who's been here as long as you to have missed out on the fact that muslims can occasionally express opinions that are (here it comes.....) diverse.

There is no story to get straight. What you saw were two opinions, perfectly valid in their own right.


Edited by M.A.R.W.A.N - 04 April 2008 at 5:10pm
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

Originally posted by LtTony

But elsewhere on the board, (waheed or eldon, I think; or someone on the "pork question") posted that Christianity teaches a difficult  and narrow path.  So which is it -- easy or difficult?  You guys need to get your stories straight.



Obviously, you're not the sharpest tool but I pity this monstrous disorientation. Please cast your functional eyes back to reality.

Let's ignore the possibility that all muslims are robots made at WIPU (Why Islam Processing Unit). Let's pretend that Muslims are people, who are made up of individuals that possess differences. Differences like....pfft , I don't know....gender, personality, experience, knowledge, thoughts, opinions, etc.

Then let's pretend you haven't frequented this forum in what seems to be like forever so that we don't have to conclude how obtuse it is for person who's been here as long as you to have missed out on the fact that muslims can occasionally express opinions that are (here it comes.....) diverse.

There is no story to get straight. What you saw were two opinions, perfectly valid in their own right.
You really shouldn't comment about someone not being the sharpest tool when it took you just short of twenty minutes to figure out that you had incorrectly spelled frequented; but you nailed obtuse...that has to count for something.
I'm just kidding...you are right, though; it was a case of 2 different opinions. 
But seriously...isn't there a scholar that you guys could talk to in order to clear the picture up?
 
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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M.A.R.W.A.N
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 04 April 2008 at 8:05pm
If that's the only mistake you can pick out in my post, then maybe I am sharp tool afterall and you, apparently a blunt instrument. No prob, I like that we can makes these kinds of jokes together.

But you're right (about me being right). Thank you for confirming it coz I wasn't sure until I read your post.

I hope this wasn't too arrogant for you, I know you don't like that and I hate to dissapoint.


edit: I misspelled the word dissapoint (shoot, and also misspelled).


Edited by M.A.R.W.A.N - 04 April 2008 at 8:09pm
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:13am
Originally posted by LtTony

But elsewhere on the board, (waheed or eldon, I think; or someone on the "pork question") posted that Christianity teaches a difficult  and narrow path.  So which is it -- easy or difficult?  You guys need to get your stories straight.
 
I wrote something about Jesus teaching the strait and narrow path that leads to eternal life, which includes the notion that the best of his disciples will keep and teach even the least commandments of the Law.
 
Christianity in general, however, looks much more like "the broad way which leads to destruction and many there be which go in thereat", by virtue of the fact that most Christians don't keep and teach even the least commandments and mostly consider those who do to be "legalistic" and even heretical.
 
And M.A.R.W.A.N. is right, besides quotes from the Bible, Quran, and other sources, what I write here is my own opinion from my own point of view. If anyone agrees or disagrees I welcome any reasoned response.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:24am
Originally posted by LtTony

 

"As for the cross, Jesus said No man can be my disciple unless he takes up his cross and follows me. That takes emphasis off of Jesus' cross onto each individual believer's cross!"
 
Originally posted by LtTony

"Takes the emphasis off Jesus' cross."  Wow.  I'm not even going to ask what part of scripture you back that up with..."
 
It's right there in what Jesus said:  No man can be my disciple UNLESS he takes up his cross. It's not enough for Christians to just believe in Jesus' cross, but they have to take up their own cross as well.
 
Of course the words are there, but THEY DO NOT impart the message you are claiming.  I'm sorry, but to think so is an embarrassing and illiterate interpretation.  I just have to shake my head.  There are a lot of things in Islam that make sense; this just isn't one of them
Yes, we have to take up our own crosses to follow Jesus.  But that is an OBVIOUS metaphor.  It doesn't mean that Jesus expects His followers to LITERALLY pick up a wooden cross.  NOR does it place this metphorical act equal to what was accomplished on THE CROSS.   Bearing "a cross" is part of our faith, but it is NO WHERE NEAR what took place on Calvary.
 
 
Tony, I think you're being intentionally illiterate here.
 
What I said was:
 
All Muslims believe that we have to submit our wills to Allah and suffer trials and testings, persevering despite hardship, overcoming doubt and uncertainty through faith. That equates to the principle of "taking up your cross" though Islam doesn't endorse the term "cross".
 
I wasn't talking about anyone having to take up a wooden cross, but to follow Jesus is to follow his example of submission to Allah's Will, and THAT is the most essential ingredient of salvation.
 
Whether he died on the cross or not doesn't save anyone without their own submission to Allah as well.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 11:50pm
Eldon, are 21st century Christians therefor at a decided disadvantage in that the cross is now used as a symbol of remembrance rather than an instrument of execution?

I think there are reasonable inferences that can be drawn from this statement. To take up one's cross and follow Jesus doesn't imply a death on that cross, though this is certainly a possibility, especially in areas of the world hostile to the message of the cross. One who is carrying a cross is living at the point of death. I think the statement is meant more to suggest an attitude the disciple ought to be carrying, i.e. to live as though you are ready to die. He has already made it known that they would encounter resistance. "Love your enemies" implies that we will have them.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 12:03am
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by LtTony

 [Quote]

"As for the cross, Jesus said No man can be my disciple unless he takes up his cross and follows me. That takes emphasis off of Jesus' cross onto each individual believer's cross!"
 
Originally posted by LtTony

"Takes the emphasis off Jesus' cross."  Wow.  I'm not even going to ask what part of scripture you back that up with..."
 
It's right there in what Jesus said:  No man can be my disciple UNLESS he takes up his cross. It's not enough for Christians to just believe in Jesus' cross, but they have to take up their own cross as well.
 
Of course the words are there, but THEY DO NOT impart the message you are claiming.  I'm sorry, but to think so is an embarrassing and illiterate interpretation.  I just have to shake my head.  There are a lot of things in Islam that make sense; this just isn't one of them
Yes, we have to take up our own crosses to follow Jesus.  But that is an OBVIOUS metaphor.  It doesn't mean that Jesus expects His followers to LITERALLY pick up a wooden cross.  NOR does it place this metphorical act equal to what was accomplished on THE CROSS.   Bearing "a cross" is part of our faith, but it is NO WHERE NEAR what took place on Calvary.
 
---------
 
 
Tony, I think you're being intentionally illiterate here.
 
What I said was:
 
All Muslims believe that we have to submit our wills to Allah and suffer trials and testings, persevering despite hardship, overcoming doubt and uncertainty through faith. That equates to the principle of "taking up your cross" though Islam doesn't endorse the term "cross".
 
I wasn't talking about anyone having to take up a wooden cross, but to follow Jesus is to follow his example of submission to Allah's Will, and THAT is the most essential ingredient of salvation.
 
Whether he died on the cross or not doesn't save anyone without their own submission to Allah as well.
 
 
  
 
 
"...overcoming doubt and uncertainty through faith. That equates to the principle of "taking up your cross" though Islam doesn't endorse the term "cross".
 
I like that part.
 
"...but to follow Jesus is to follow his example of submission to Allah's Will, and THAT is the most essential ingredient of salvation."
 
I think it is one ingredient, the secondary one.  I think faith that Jesus is the Son of God, the messiah and our Saviour through His death and resurrection is the first and most essential....
 
""As for the cross, Jesus said No man can be my disciple unless he takes up his cross and follows me. That takes emphasis off of Jesus' cross onto each individual believer's cross!"

... but it doesn't shift the "emphasis off of Jesus' cross."

"Whether he died on the cross or not doesn't save anyone without their own submission to Allah as well."
 
That is an interesting talking point, even among Christians.  I think if you truely believe in Christ, you will earnestly try to follow what He taught (inclu. submitting to Allah).  At least that is what Christ said.
 

 
 


Edited by LtTony - 06 April 2008 at 12:09am
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 10:02am
Originally posted by Squeegie

One who is carrying a cross is living at the point of death. I think the statement is meant more to suggest an attitude the disciple ought to be carrying, i.e. to live as though you are ready to die.
 
There is an actual "dying to sin" that any believer must go through and I think that is exactly what "taking up the cross" entails. Romans' chapter six deals extensively with that subject.
 
For in that he (Jesus) died, he died unto sin once:  but in that he lives, he lives unto God. Likewise, reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God... 6:10-11
 
I suggest that Jesus "died unto sin once" during his whole life, refusing to sin despite being tempted like any other man to do so. The death on the cross was the death of the old man, the sin nature which believers are to reckon as accomplished in themselves.
 
Being ready to die for the faith is also a necessary outlook for any believer, but death to sin is a more fundamental aspect of faith.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 10:27am
Originally posted by LtTony

""As for the cross, Jesus said No man can be my disciple unless he takes up his cross and follows me. That takes emphasis off of Jesus' cross onto each individual believer's cross!"

... but it doesn't shift the "emphasis off of Jesus' cross."

 
"Taking up your cross" is what actualizes that which took place on Calvary:  your death to sin and realization of Life in the Spirit of Christ.
 
That overcoming victorious Spirit was in all the Prophets, according to 1Peter 1:11, whose example we are to follow, shunning sin and forbidding evil to accomplish good in this life.
 
Muslims have the further and more detailed example of Muhammad to follow, by which we "hold fast to the rope of Allah" which unites the people of faith throughout time. (Peace and blessings be upon all the Prophets)
 
"Whether he died on the cross or not doesn't save anyone without their own submission to Allah as well."
 
That is an interesting talking point, even among Christians.  I think if you truely believe in Christ, you will earnestly try to follow what He taught (inclu. submitting to Allah).  At least that is what Christ said.
 
I fully agree.


Edited by eldon - 06 April 2008 at 10:28am
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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