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MeInUSA
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote MeInUSA Replybullet Topic: Some things to clear up
    Posted: 26 March 2008 at 7:44pm
I've just been reading on here a little bit & thought I may be able to clear a few things up.  As to Jesus not knowing the last day, etc, Jesus did not walk this earth as God.  Jesus came to this earth as a man & He emptied Himself of His godly powers, as we see in this verse:
 

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:5-11

 

Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies from the Old Testament, which scientists/scholars say would have been impossible for anyone but Jesus to have fulfilled. The chances of one person fulfilling a mere 8 of these prophecies are 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. For one person to fulfill 48 of these prophecies, the number becomes staggering--1 chance in 10 to the 157th power (1 with 157 zeros after it). Add to that the 250 other prophecies and it becomes impossible for any other person except Jesus to ever fit that particular sequence of time and events.

 
I know Muslims put limits on God & say He cannot separate Himself, but this is what most Christians believe. I do not find it any harder to believe this when I believe God created us, the world, listens to all of our prayers, etc. I guess we all just have to believe as we believe is right.
 
As far as some saying the Bible cannot be talking about the holy spirit & is talking about Muhammad b/c they say the holy spirit was already here...well, the holy spirit was not here for everyone who prayed for its guidance & had only been here for very few.  Also, with the holy spirit to guide our hearts & put love in our hearts after Jesus left this earth is one of the reasons we didn't need such harsh punishments any longer. Christians always knew what Jesus was talking about here and nowhere thru history do we see them looking for another prophet b/c they thought that is what Jesus meant. They knew exactly what Jesus was referring to & still do. There are other verses talking about the holy spirit which proves it could not have been Muhammad that He was speaking of.
 
And Deuteronomy is definitely not talking about Muhammad.  Nowhere were Jews or Christians looking for a prophet to rise up from Arabs.  So both knew what these verses meant and not once did either think it meant another prophet arising from Arabs & they knew these verses were about the Messiah.
 
The Claim that Muhammad was the Prophet like Moses

"I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." -- Deuteronomy 18:18

In regard to the above verse, many Muslims claim that because God is speaking to the Israelites who are the seed of Isaac, then the phrase "from among their brothers" must mean the descendants of Ishmael since Ishmael was Isaac's brother. Therefore, they reason, the "prophet like Moses" who was prophesied to come, can only refer to Muhammad since he was the only great prophet to descend from Ishmael, and like Moses, instituted the Law of God and performed miracles.

First let us deal with the phrase "from among their brothers." We get a better understanding of what this means from a similar usage when God instructed the Israelites about choosing a king. Notice Deuteronomy 17:14-15.

When ... you say "Let us set a king over us like the nations around us, "be sure to appoint over you the king the Lord your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite.

Surely, no Muslim familiar with ancient Middle Eastern practice would expect the Israelites to seek a descendent of Ishmael for their king. Furthermore, it is clear that the phrase "from among their brothers" simply means a brother Israelite.

Secondly, in comparing Muhammad to Moses, it is important to read Deuteronomy 34:10-12. This gives us a concise description of Moses and indicates what was to be expected of this future prophet.

Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those miraculous signs and wonders... For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.

From the Holy Scriptures we know that (1), Moses was an Israelite; (2) he was known by God "face to face," meaning God spoke to him directly, -- not through an intermediary; and (3) he performed awesome miracles. Muslims claim Muhammed is the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:18. Christians, however, are convinced that the "prophet like Moses" is none other than Jesus the Messiah, and base their claim according to the following comparisons:


Moses                      Jesus                     Muhammad 
=====                      =====                     ========
 
Prophet from               Prophet from              Prophet from 
among the                  among the                 among the 
Israelites                 Israelites                Arabs

                           the tribe of Judah,       (Sura 32:3;
                           (Matthew 1:3,             36:6; 34:43-44)
                           Luke 3:33)



Revelations                Revelations               Revelations
directly                   directly                  indirectly

from God                   from God                  through the 
(Sura 4:164                (John 12:49-50,           angel Gabriel 
Exodus 33:11)              4:10)                     (Sura 2:97) 



Miracles                   Miracles                  No Miracles 

(Sura 2:50 sea             (Sura 3:49                (Sura 6:37 
Sura 2:57 manna)           Matthew 8:27 sea          Sura 28:48)
                           John 6:11-14 manna)
There are many others.
In addition to the above, the New Testament confirms that the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:18 was fulfilled by Jesus the Messiah. Read Acts 3:17-26. Notice verse 22: For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people..." 

In closing, note carefully what Surat-ul Qasas (28:48) says:

But (now) when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him (Muhammad), like those which were sent to Moses."

It is evident from this verse that even according to Al-Qur'an, Muhammad was not looked upon as one like Moses!

And the verses someone posted from the Quran, saying they predicted what was said in the Bible, to me, didn't even remotely sound the same in any way.

As I said, I guess we all have to believe what we feel is right.  I just do not see how Muslims could think the Bible was changed. Do they think Jews & Christians got together & changed the Bible or what? When was the big war when someone changed the Bible? Was the OT changed & then the NT changed or what? There are so many ancient manuscripts 4 both the OT & NT & so many archeological findings & other evidence, I'm not sure how it could have ever been possible for any of the Bible to have ever been changed. However, on the contrary, we have Islam's own history stating there were various versions of the Quran at one time & some man picking one version out & burning the rest. This has just never made any sense whatsoever to me.
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 10:06pm
Hello MeInUSa.
 
Moses - Head of state
Muhammad - Head of state
Jesus - Not
 
Moses - Called for war
Muhammad - Called for war
Jesus - Not
 
Moses - Husband n father
Muhammad - Husband n father
Jesus - Not (unless u believe Dan Brown)
 
Moses - Normal conception
Muhammad - Normal conception
Jesus - Miraculous conception
 
Peace be upon them.
 
 


Edited by Traveller - 26 March 2008 at 10:08pm
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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jana.z  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jana.z Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2008 at 11:17pm
meinusa, i have to say that even when i was  a christian i realized that the holy bible had a million translations and one bible said one thing and the other said another.
 
when henry the VIII had the bible translated into vernacular,  it was written so that the common ppl could understand it and lost much of its meaning.  the king was a rather controlling fellow, so dont you think he had a hand in the translation?
 
dont you ever ask yourself how there are so many "versions" of one book? when there really should be no changes.  dont you wonder why in one book a verse is quoted one way, but you can look up the same verse in another and find it written with another meaning.
 
this is something i realized when i was a christian.   i understand it even better  now that im able to look at it with a more unbiased mind.  when you are a christian, you want desperately to believe everything you read and/or learn in sunday school.
 
so the jews and the christians were not looking for a prophet to rise from the arabs? well why is that not possible?   its all in the same area of the world.  im sure that noone suspected that a prophet would be rising from a manger or in the garden of eden.   
 
as for the matter of "clearing up". you cant clear these matters for a muslim. the Qu'ran cleared everything up.  the Qu'ran brings everything from the beginning of all prophets and messengers to the final message. the clarification. and im not spouting rhetoric  or something ive been clacked on the knuckles to say.  God is telling all of us, All of us to heed the warnings and messages of All the prophets (including our beloved Jesus) throughout the ages.
 
so if you want Real clarification.........just think about heading to the nearest book store and pick up the noble and glorious Qu'ran to complete the story. inshallah.  you might be surprised....really.  also pick up a book about the life of mohammed, pbuh.   even on the net you can find plenty about his life.  i think youll be surprised the second time.  he loved God with all his heart and spent his life worshiping Him.
And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

http://myimmatureviewpoint.blogspot.com/
http://solomuslimah.blogspot.com/
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 8:56am
 Ok a little off topic,But when u say

The chances of one person fulfilling a mere 8 of these prophecies are 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000

 You are applying the same logic we muslims use to prove to non-muslims and atheists ( I myself have used this form of reasoning more than once in these forums )to prove that the Quran can be from no but God ,it is denied and shunned.

 There are many scienctific facts mentioned in the Quran of which most of them have been recently ( most of them in the last few hundred years and some as late as the 70's)discovered.Something which is impossible for a illterate camel driver living 1600yrs ago to know.

 So using the same logic that lets say he was guessing and got one or a few right,but having gotten all of them right the odds that he was just winging it far exceed the number you have mentioned .

 If for nothing else but reliying solely on mathematics and science you have to agree that The Quran cannot be written by ( as alleged by many ppl ) Muhammed and cannot be from anyone other than God.

 So in fact there should be no argument on who or what jesus was when the Quran clearly clarifies that conundrum


We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 10:29am
Originally posted by jana.z

meinusa, i have to say that even when i was  a christian i realized that the holy bible had a million translations and one bible said one thing and the other said another.
 
when henry the VIII had the bible translated into vernacular,  it was written so that the common ppl could understand it and lost much of its meaning.  the king was a rather controlling fellow, so dont you think he had a hand in the translation?
 
dont you ever ask yourself how there are so many "versions" of one book? when there really should be no changes.  dont you wonder why in one book a verse is quoted one way, but you can look up the same verse in another and find it written with another meaning.
 
this is something i realized when i was a christian.   i understand it even better  now that im able to look at it with a more unbiased mind.  when you are a christian, you want desperately to believe everything you read and/or learn in sunday school.
 
so the jews and the christians were not looking for a prophet to rise from the arabs? well why is that not possible?   its all in the same area of the world.  im sure that noone suspected that a prophet would be rising from a manger or in the garden of eden.   
 
as for the matter of "clearing up". you cant clear these matters for a muslim. the Qu'ran cleared everything up.  the Qu'ran brings everything from the beginning of all prophets and messengers to the final message. the clarification. and im not spouting rhetoric  or something ive been clacked on the knuckles to say.  God is telling all of us, All of us to heed the warnings and messages of All the prophets (including our beloved Jesus) throughout the ages.
 
so if you want Real clarification.........just think about heading to the nearest book store and pick up the noble and glorious Qu'ran to complete the story. inshallah.  you might be surprised....really.  also pick up a book about the life of mohammed, pbuh.   even on the net you can find plenty about his life.  i think youll be surprised the second time.  he loved God with all his heart and spent his life worshiping Him.


Very well said sister... mashallah
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2008 at 11:24am

"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. " Philippians 2:5-11

 
Thanks for posting that, but do consider the following translation and analysis:
 

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who subsisting in the nature of God, thought not to grasp at equality with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men."

The key word in that passage is translated as subsisting, and is derived from the Greek word huparcho, meaning to begin under, i.e. to come into existence, to exist as subordinate to God! (see Strong’s Greek Lexicon, word #5225)

Most English translations of the New Testament leave out the clear implications of the word huparcho in this verse, causing many believers to experience confusion as to the nature of Messiah. However, if you will consult the Englishman's Greek New Testament, you'll see the word subsisting there.

So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

Islam">Islam
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