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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Topic: Jesus in Islam
    Posted: 28 March 2008 at 11:53pm
The Messiah

A very important personality to Muslims, Jesus Christ is mentioned by name in the Qur'an twenty-five times. He was Al-Maseeh [The Messiah], awaited by the Jewish people. The Jewish people expected a leader to defeat their enemies in a military conflict, however Jesus had a much greater and more difficult of a task, i.e. a mission of spiritual priorities and renewal, a rejuvenation of the intent of the law [of Moses], rather than blind obedience to ritual and tradition.

Woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you Hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices-mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the most important matters of the law-justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. [Matthew 23:23-24]


..Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and all your mind and all your strength. The second is this-'Love your neighbor as yourself' there is no commandments greater than these [Mark 12: 29-31]


Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. [ Luke 11:42]

Died for mankind's sins?

The current ideas associated with the Messiah in Christendom, such as his death-sacrifice as atonement for mankind's sins, is not supported by Islamic teachings. We would like to point out some of the following Biblical texts food for thought.

"[John the Baptist said] Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves 'We have Abraham as our father' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire" [Matt. 3:8-10]


In this Biblical text, we have a lesson of personal responsibility and deeds which must be shown to have some sort of positive effect. Otherwise, faith is not useful to the believer. Also of interest, from the Bible, is Matt. 12:33, 13:31-34.

The same essential teaching is given in the Qur'an.

...And none can bear the burdens of another. Then, to your Lord is your return, he will tell you the truth of that which you disagreed about [Q 6:164]
 For more, go to http://shamsuddinwaheed.blogspot.com/2008/01/jesus-in-islam.html

Edited by waheed1 - 28 March 2008 at 11:54pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 11:49am
waheed if there is one thing that I gathered from my readings, it is that jesus himself seemed utterly convinced that his death would reconcile man and G_D.

it is utterly pointless to suggest otherwise to christians.

to put it simply -
Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."

John 10:11,15 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.

There is simply no other way to look at it.

Edited by algebra - 29 March 2008 at 11:53am
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 8:02pm
At the very end, according to the Gospel account, Jesus says to God "If it be your will, let this cup pass away from me", an expression showing he did not want to die. In  any case, there is much more to the original article on the blog.

Comment there as well, and I promise that [God-willing] I will respond.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 8:03pm
 
I'm anxious to read your response.
"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 10:43pm
waheed, i believe you were christian to start off with right?

I am therefore surprised by your response.
According to christians, Jesus was fully human, and went through the crucifixion feeling everything.

It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain.

So I dont doubt that whilst he knew he would do it, it scared the heck out of him.
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 29 March 2008 at 11:30pm
Actually I am a born Muslim.
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 9:24am
Current threads of Christianity suggest that Jesus has died for mankind's sins. Certainly that is not a teaching given in Islam, and it can reasonably be seen from texts in the Bible that personal responsibility, as well as actions ["deeds"] are necessary for "salvation".

Which takes me from an issue removed from Jesus. Would a just and merciful God punish me for the deeds of my ancestors, ancestors far removed from me and my own actions, deeds and thoughts? Can I  punish your son for you stealing money from me?

If that is God, there is no need for me to worship him then!

Algebra, history has shown that there are perhaps millions of ways at looking at Jesus. Some early accounts tried to suggest that in reality, Jesus as a person did not exist, such was the view of some Gnostics. Many people see him as God, many [such as Muslims] see him as a great teacher and Prophet, and the list goes on and on...

The question is now posed, which account or understanding of the nature of Jesus, and of our own human nature, is the correct and most logical one?
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by algebra

waheed if there is one thing that I gathered from my readings, it is that jesus himself seemed utterly convinced that his death would reconcile man and G_D.

it is utterly pointless to suggest otherwise to christians.

to put it simply -
Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
 
Matthew 26:27,28 And he (Jesus) took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying Drink ye all of it. For this is my blood of the New
Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
 
Notice that Jesus makes a substitution:  he gives them wine to drink, saying it is his blood which is shed. And he said it was for many, not for all man.
 
That substitution prefigures another substitution which takes place on the cross, as individual sinners through the ages realize their guilt and identify with "the likeness of sinful flesh" slain on the cross, acknowledging their own worthiness to die, but repenting and reforming themselves to follow after the example set by Jesus and all the prophets.
 
As Waheed pointed out, the Bible teaches repentance for the remission of sins, and that good works are to be brought forth in keeping with repentance. Jesus certainly did not negate that teaching.

Originally posted by Algebra

John 10:11,15 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

 
Again, there is a very pertinent verse left out of the midst of your quote: "No man takes my life from me, but I lay it down of myself" that equates to the Quran's statement "they killed him not, nor crucified him".

Originally posted by Algebra

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. . .
 
That is John 8:24, verse 25 continues the dialogue:  Then they said unto him, Who art thou?  And Jesus answered, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
 
From the beginning of his ministry, Jesus had proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, and that is the detail about himself which he indicated that it was necessary for men to believe or else they would die in their sins.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by algebra


According to christians, Jesus was fully human, and went through the crucifixion feeling everything.

It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain.

 
This is another anomaly, worthy of comment.
 
All the sacrifices in the Law of Moses were killed relatively painlessly:  their throat was slit and they quickly bled to death.
 
The victim on the cross however suffered a tortuous death:  beaten with whips beforehand, mocked, spit upon, slapped, beard pulled out, made to carry a heavy piece of wood up a hill, then nailed through the hands and feet to that piece of wood, struggling to breathe amidst the pain until he finally suffocated or his breath gave out.
 
That is not the OT picture of a sacrifice by any means, but relates more to the sort of tortuous death that criminals were to suffer according to the Law of Moses.
 
The scene on the cross, to all appearances a holy innocent man made to suffer a shameful death, is supposed to strike the conscience of sinners to realize that they deserve to die, not Jesus.
 
And the effect that is accomplished thereby, according to the New Testament, is that the believer identifies with the slain victim, "the likeness of sinful flesh", but is transformed in character to become like Jesus, righteous and pure.
 
Though Islam does not feature the crucifixion, it does promote the reformation of character that is in keeping with repentance for the forgiveness of sins, both of which Jesus also taught.
 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:31pm

Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
John 10:11,15 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep...15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep."

Waheed:  Here and at your blog you avoid the question at hand.  You write what you think and a little bit of what the quran says, and a mention a couple of Bible quotes that only you seems to think relates to algebra's verses.  That's it.

You write: "...can reasonably be seen from texts in the Bible that personal responsibility, as well as actions ["deeds"] are necessary for 'salvation'." Yes, we have some responsibilities as believers.  None of that would amount to anything without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

You ask: "Would a just and merciful God punish me for the deeds of my ancestors, ancestors far removed from me and my own actions, deeds and thoughts? Can I  punish your son for you stealing money from me?"

Is there anything you wouldn't do for your children? I can accept "...And none can bear the burdens of another" but your personal rationalizations are shallow to me.  Regardless, the teachings of Jesus Himself and of His Apostles THROUGHOUT the NT make it clear Christ died for us.  I have no problem if you don't accept that, or the Quran says otherwise, but trying to use the Bible to reinforce your argument only undermines it.

"If Christ had promised salvation without giving His life, the demands of mercy would certainly have been fulfilled. In order to satisfy the demands of justice also, Christ paid the ransom, which was His precious blood. In this way God has manifested His love for us. "In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins" (I John 4:10).  Mark Hanna

You asked: The question is now posed, which account or understanding of the nature of Jesus, and of our own human nature, is the correct and most logical one?

Again, your personal musings need to be fleshed out a bit more.  To you and many others, it is illogical.  To me and many others, it is logical and repeatedly affirmed in scripture.

"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:43pm
Notice that Jesus makes a substitution:  he gives them wine to drink, saying it is his blood which is shed. And he said it was for many, not for all man.
What? "Many" but "not all?"  How many?   It's OK for you to beleive this, but it is not supported by Christ's teachings.  I mean how far do you want to take that line of thought?  When Christ said "for all men" did he just mean the guys?  When He was talking about His sheep did He literally mean farm animals?
 
That substitution prefigures another substitution which takes place on the cross, as individual sinners through the ages realize their guilt and identify with "the likeness of sinful flesh" slain on the cross, acknowledging their own worthiness to die, but repenting and reforming themselves to follow after the example set by Jesus and all the prophets.
 
Huh?  Eldon, don't get me wrong; you seem like a nice guy.  But I have to say your argument has completely gone whack here.
The substitution prefigures another substitution?  You mean the double cross on the cross... "the likeness of sinful flesh"?  Again, you are obviously free to believe that theory, but the Bible CLEARLY doesn't teach that.
 
As Waheed pointed out, the Bible teaches repentance for the remission of sins, and that good works are to be brought forth in keeping with repentance. Jesus certainly did not negate that teaching.
 
Here I can agree with you, in principal.
"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:50pm
Again, there is a very pertinent verse left out of the midst of your quote: "No man takes my life from me, but I lay it down of myself" that equates to the Quran's statement "they killed him not, nor crucified him".
 
Well, you are free to read it that way, obviously.  But if you just read, ""No man takes my life from me, but I lay it down of myself" just by itself, how would you interpret it?  With me, no Bible context is even necessary.  It means, "Nobody can take my life, only if I let them by giving it up myself." 
But then do add Bible context (all the many quotes where Jesus says He will die for us and passages where the Apostles teach that), and I don't know how it could be any clearer.
"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 5:59pm
That is John 8:24, verse 25 continues the dialogue:  Then they said unto him, Who art thou?  And Jesus answered, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
 
From the beginning of his ministry, Jesus had proclaimed himself to be the Messiah, and that is the detail about himself which he indicated that it was necessary for men to believe or else they would die in their sins.
 
 
Yes, verse 25 is likely speaking of the beginning of His ministry.  But you want to talk about dialogue?  Then read ALL of John 8;. Heck, ALL of John.  Then you will see the dialogue around verse 25 hinges on His "that I AM" declaration (which has been discussed at WI).


Edited by LtTony - 30 March 2008 at 6:02pm
"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 6:09pm
That is not the OT picture of a sacrifice by any means, but relates more to the sort of tortuous death that criminals were to suffer according to the Law of Moses.
 
Interesting.  I admire you thinking for yourself.  Your thought above is not something I have read here before.
 
What I think is this:  yes, Christ was given a criminal's death.  He was executed by the Romans, not the Jews.  While the Jews had a religious beef with Jesus, this was of no concern to the Romans, only possible civil unrest.  So although there many OT parallels (Passover, etc.), Jesus was not sacrificed on an altar or in a temple like OT animals.
 
Again though, I wouldn't hang my hat on this.  To me, there is overwhelming evidence that Christ was crucified; that He died for our sins, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. 
 
 
"We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two. Osama Bin Laden
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