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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 6:16pm
 
The scene on the cross, to all appearances a holy innocent man made to suffer a shameful death, is supposed to strike the conscience of sinners to realize that they deserve to die, not Jesus.
 
And the effect that is accomplished thereby, according to the New Testament, is that the believer identifies with the slain victim, "the likeness of sinful flesh", but is transformed in character to become like Jesus, righteous and pure.
 
I take it that you are getting all the "appearances" and "transformed" stuff from the Quran, because not of which you are speculating on is supported in Christian scripture.  Yes, Christians are to be transformed, born again, et al, but not in the sense you are contemplating here.  Your theory is not "according to the New Testament."  Not to any reasonable, open-minded person it isn't.  Your building things backwards.  Starting with the Quran to disprove the Bible.  Which I understand; you're muslim.  But leave it with the Koran; it is NOT in the Bible.
 
Got to go.  Hopefully we can talk more later.
 
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2008 at 9:45pm
Perhaps you are correct that my views are "shallow", but depth is not really needed in something like this. A person commits a crime, can we punish that person's children? The idea about the sacrifice of Jesus essentially states that God punished or allowed his own "begotten son" to be killed, to die, to take on the sins of mankind.

The OT says that anyone crucified, or hung from a tree, is cursed by God. In the same section, Deut. 22 if I'm not mistaken, it says that a person crucified is to be buried the same day. Christian tradition claims he [Jesus] took on the curse, and was buried three days later, rather than the day he was said to have been crucified.

to us, Jesus, as a messenger of God- is not to have that sort of fate. He is a dignified person in God's sight, no matter what has been claimed about him, he was "Raised by God to himself" in terms of status. He was not to suffer the fate of crucifixion. Not for our sins, or any other reason. That is the way we see it.
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:49am


to us, Jesus, as a messenger of God... He was not to suffer the fate of crucifixion. Not for our sins, or any other reason. That is the way we see it.
 
I understand that and respect it.  Please respect our belief in our scriptures and do not incorrectly use them to bolster your beliefs. Use the Quran all you want, of course.
 
...Deut. 22 if I'm not mistaken, it says that a person crucified is to be buried the same day. Christian tradition claims he [Jesus] took on the curse, and was buried three days later, rather than the day he was said to have been crucified.
 
That's not how it happened, according to Mark 15, among others.
 
Perhaps you are correct that my views are "shallow", but depth is not really needed in something like this.
 
I don't think "depth" is necessary, but I'm afraid something a little deeper is, in fact, required.
 
A person commits a crime, can we punish that person's children? The idea about the sacrifice of Jesus essentially states that God punished or allowed his own "begotten son" to be killed, to die, to take on the sins of mankind.
 
I've heard that analogy here before, and it just doesn't apply, IMO.  But this time I'll try to work within it.  No, the offspring shouldn't and aren't punished for their ancestors personal crimes.  But neither should those offspring be condemned to a life of crime with no chance for forgiveness, repentance or avoiding a completely criminal life-style.  Christ paid the price and give them the chance.
 
But the better reply is this:  "According to the New Testament gospels, Jesus fully expected that He would be suffer and be killed. He spoke of his death, not merely as something that would happen, but as something that must happen."  He did nothing to prevent it.  In fact, in some ways He hastened it. 
Now, it doesn't surprise me that some people do not understand His atoning blood sacrifice.  Christ's own disciples did not understand His predictions of His death.  It took a while for the implications to set in. So it doesn't surprise me that some people are unable or refuse to understand it. 
 
Now, where your "crime" analogy falls down for me is that man's sinful nature does not have the character of a personal fault. But it is clear from Islamic  and Christian teachings that Adam and Eve were expelled from Paradise as punsihment for their sin. Even though they repented. They lost their original nature of holiness and justice. In other words, they lost it and we couldn't inherit what our parents don't have. 
 
"The problem in every society, and with every person, is that no one has ever been able to consistently obey their own moral code - not to mention God's moral code, without revising their code or rationalizing their bad behavior. The question is what DID God do? Not, what else could God have done?
God can do whatever God wishes. God established the concept of salvation, through the shedding of blood, long ago in the Old Testament and this has been a consistent theme throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
The question is not why didn't Almighty God do things my way or your way of thinking, but rather why did God do what He did?"
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:24pm
I think Brother Waheed1 has focused on the most telling point of the question:
 
The question is now posed, which account or understanding of the nature of Jesus, and of our own human nature, is the correct and most logical one?
 
According to the Bible and Quran, Jesus was the word and spirit of Allah, and a mortal human being, "made in all points like as we are, yet without sin". Our own nature is that we are only mortal human beings, not exceptional individual words and spirits of Allah, as he was.
 
The Bible tells us about Jesus, that he had no form nor comeliness, nor beauty that we should desire him. In another place it says of him, God sent his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Thus he looked like just an ordinary person, with flaws, imperfections in appearance, human limitations, etc, just like anyone else.
 
I think everyone agrees that the word and spirit of Allah could never have been killed. Where we disagree is in the appearance of what happened on the cross:  can it really be said that Jesus died there, considering all that he was, and is?
 
Even if you reject the idea that there was any sort of substitution made on the cross and that it was only the body of Jesus nailed there, do you think it is a fully accurate statement to make that the Jews killed him, knowing "the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23) ?


Edited by eldon - 31 March 2008 at 12:50pm
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by LtTony

 
The scene on the cross, to all appearances a holy innocent man made to suffer a shameful death, is supposed to strike the conscience of sinners to realize that they deserve to die, not Jesus.
 
And the effect that is accomplished thereby, according to the New Testament, is that the believer identifies with the slain victim, "the likeness of sinful flesh", but is transformed in character to become like Jesus, righteous and pure.
 
I take it that you are getting all the "appearances" and "transformed" stuff from the Quran, because not of which you are speculating on is supported in Christian scripture.  Yes, Christians are to be transformed, born again, et al, but not in the sense you are contemplating here.  Your theory is not "according to the New Testament."  Not to any reasonable, open-minded person it isn't.  Your building things backwards.  Starting with the Quran to disprove the Bible.  Which I understand; you're muslim.  But leave it with the Koran; it is NOT in the Bible.
 
 
 
 
Actually, I started with the Bible, to disprove the Quran, but instead found concord between them.
 
No one can deny that the historical scene of the crucifixion has been placed before mankind and that it has been a major contemplation for religious people ever since.
 
New Testament verses such as I already posted here and in the other thread show that there was more to the crucifixion than what appeared to happen, so much so that the Quran's assessment "they killed him not, nor crucified him" can be seen as apt and valid.
 
If you want to focus only on what appeared to happen and ignore the unseen features, that is your choice, but don't say the verses I posted aren't in the NT!
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Islamway  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Islamway Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:46pm

Thanks for the article .. Jesus in Islam is one of the greatest prophets  .. he was the last prophet sent to the children of Israel .. and he taught people that religion is not just about laws and rituals but it has a no less important spiritual side .. something the Jews used to ignore.
The core message of Jesus was still the same as the rest of messengers (peace be upon them all) .. to worship Allah alone and to work righteously .. No prophet has ever asked people to worship him or make him a partner with Allah.

As for the second part of the article, here is something I want to add: although the concept of God in religions varies greatly .. yet the divine Justice remains as a major point of agreement .. Here we can see the problem with Christianity, it teaches that God is just, yet what their theology says is something completely otherwise.
- First we see that God damned all his creature to hell for being sinners .. that's unfair by all standards .. even according to the bible people are not equal, there are righteous and evil people, and treating them equally is not justice. Gen 18:25  Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?"  
The bible also affirms that people get rewarded for their good deeds.

- Then we see that God had to fix this problem by making another act of injustice ..which is making an innocent man pay for the sins of others, instead of just forgiving them. Which is ,again, unfair by all means .. And it should be mentioned here that according to the Christian theology, it was not God's decision to save mankind but the decision of the human Jesus who offered himself for other people .. which makes the real savior of mankind a man not God.


Edited by Islamway - 31 March 2008 at 5:09pm
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 8:43am
Christian tradition claims he [Jesus] took on the curse, and was buried three days later, rather than the day he was said to have been crucified.


I misstated. The Christian view is that he was killed, and rose from the dead three days later. Sorry for the mixup.

But neither should those offspring be condemned to a life of crime with no chance for forgiveness, repentance or avoiding a completely criminal life-style.  Christ paid the price and give them the chance.
 

But if they never committed a crime, and are innocent of the crime their ancestor did, why should Jesus Christ "pay a price' on their behalf?

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S.Waheed

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deep thought  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote deep thought Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 10:23am
"It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain."
 
Well, one can also argue that it wasn't much of a sacrifice in that Jesus knew that he was God... Also,Jesus is time and time again said to make claims to being God... On the cross he cried out to God. hmmm, he cried to himself? He sacrificed himself so HE(being God) can forgive his own creation?
 
Just throwing my 2 cents in..

 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 3:54pm
One thing I had to question the christians. If Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for sins, why are their sacrifices for their humanity these days? I am thinking some of us ain't having no relationship with God because they don't have a independance if I am right. 

Edited by struggle - 01 April 2008 at 4:26pm
EYE FOR EYE
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by deep thought

"It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain."
 
Well, one can also argue that it wasn't much of a sacrifice in that Jesus knew that he was God... Also,Jesus is time and time again said to make claims to being God... On the cross he cried out to God. hmmm, he cried to himself? He sacrificed himself so HE(being God) can forgive his own creation?
 
Just throwing my 2 cents in..

 
And when he cried, "why have you forsaken me"; did he mean that he had forsaken himself?  Kind of confusing, but a thing being confusing doesn't necessarily make it untrue.
Religion is a rather confusing issue for one who has many questions...it can be harder to understand than physics, which is only so much gibberish to me; but again, because i cannot understand it, that, in and of itself, does not make the thing in question untrue.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 4:20pm
Physics has nothing to do with one's standing before God, so I think that metaphor is not really applicable. The Qur'an again and again points to rational thought as a means to prove or disprove any idea or argument.

It says it is "For a thinking people' [Liqawmin Yattafakkaroon].When we investigate or think about religion, the basics should be easy for all to understand. If not, then we have a problem.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 4:26pm
Methinks the metaphor was entirely lost on you; but cest la vie.
If you met my mother-in-law; you would rethink the religion for thinking people statement.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 5:34pm
I understood your original metaphor to mean that, in essence, we can't always understand everything, however that does not mean that the "thing" is inherently false. Right?

My response to that was that, using the example cited by Deep thought, if Jesus saw himself as God, why did he cry "why has thou forsaken me?"- the very foundation or the essence of the idea should pass the test of common sense and knowledge. You seem to agree  that indeed that idea, that he was God and still cried out as shown above- was indeed irrational, but you just have to accept it nonetheless because it is given in that manner in the Christian tradition.

I humbly disagree, and it is the contention of the Qur'an that we must think about our ideologies, examine them again and again to make sure that we are following the right teachings, that what we have is indeed from God and most useful for our religious views and practices.

For more on this, obtain my CD "Quranic spirituality".


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 6:35pm

The very idea of a god who created us (and by inference, had us or our spirits with him to begin with); and released us into the world and populated said world with jinns and pigs and all manner of things to tempt us in order for us to either pass or fail the test, and thereby be with him in the same magical place that we started out in when he created us or to be sent into a place where we will be punished in the worst horrible ways; does not, in any way, shape or form, reek of common sense or knowledge. 

Whilst i agree that jesus calling out to himself about forsaking himself, doesn't seem logical; but by comparison to the above, tis a little thing...is it not?
Man, that's akin to my placing numerous types of drugs on my dining room table and when my daughter or son indulges in using some of them; i punish them in the worst possible ways.
No matter how you slice it, logical it isn't.


Edited by scruggnut - 01 April 2008 at 6:43pm
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