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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 6:46pm
Ironic that you mention "temptation" because I actually wrote a study about trials, temptation and tests as given in the Qur'an. The study took me quite a long time, and sufficient it is to say that there is a logic to "trial" at least as given in the Qur'an. I don't want to make a sales pitch, but nonetheless I invite you to obtain the work, called "Language of revelation" which discusses a number of subjects, set in a backround of Arabic language study.PM me if you're interested.

I don't want to go too much into it, but to use your metaphor God has created the universe and everyone therein not to be a "test" in the sense of seeing if your kids will take the drugs. The drugs are there for a reason, to help the kids. The drugs are not randomly placed there either.


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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:45am
I understand the logic of "trial"; but i also understand that, as a father, i do my best to keep such "trials" to a minimum as concerns my children...i wonder why god doesn't do the same.
Another thing is, i didn't create the trials; but god did...it just doesn't make any sense to me that allah wishes for us all to be with him; but one has to assume that prior to our creation; we were with him.


Edited by scruggnut - 02 April 2008 at 9:46am
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:48am
The principle, Prove all things, hold fast that which is True, explains both our testings in this world and the proper investigation of "religious truth".
 
Allah testing us in this world is to prove to us that we are His. All the prophets were tested in various ways, so how can we expect less?
 
The Old Testament quote, "Come let us reason together...", along with the NT quote above, shows that our Maker expects us to intensely examine purported truth to arrive at knowledge of the Genuine Article.
 
I well understand that people such as your mother in law can be QUITE a test, Scrug, but be assured that Truth is for thinking people.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:04am
"thinking people" look into information on what they were commanded.

Edited by struggle - 02 April 2008 at 10:11am
EYE FOR EYE
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:09am
Originally posted by eldon

The principle, Prove all things, hold fast that which is True, explains both our testings in this world and the proper investigation of "religious truth".
 
Allah testing us in this world is to prove to us that we are His. All the prophets were tested in various ways, so how can we expect less?
 
The Old Testament quote, "Come let us reason together...", along with the NT quote above, shows that our Maker expects us to intensely examine purported truth to arrive at knowledge of the Genuine Article.
 
I well understand that people such as your mother in law can be QUITE a test, Scrug, but be assured that Truth is for thinking people.
If the statement, "prove all things, hold fast that which is true", is affirmation of religious truth, why then, is the existance of god an impossible thing to prove without the addition of a little thing called faith...which is not proof; but more of a feeling.


Edited by scruggnut - 02 April 2008 at 10:10am
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:25am
The existance of God is not an impossible thing to prove, He will fully prove Himself in the eyes of all Creation eventually. For now though, faith IS the test He designed for us all to take.
 
If we pass the test it is due to the evidence He has given and His help along the way. If we fail, it will be our failure, not His. I trust that He will be proven to have been more than fair to all concerned.


Edited by eldon - 02 April 2008 at 10:26am
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 11:27am

Another non-answer...you guys are really good at this sort of thing.

I don't blame god for my not understanding what may be his message...if anything, it's a combination of my inability to grasp things which have no immediate discernable answer, and the fact that he has insisted upon choosing men to bring the message to us, rather than bring it to all of us himself.  If he could send gabriel to talk with muhammad...if he could talk to moses himself; why can't he do the same for me.
Granted, i do not consider myself a fraction of the man that they were; but if what he really wants is for all of us to accept and embrace him, then he must employ different means for different people; just as we must when trying to explain certain aspects of our ideologies.
What works for one doesn't work for another...and that, my friend, IS gods doing...not mine.
 


Edited by scruggnut - 02 April 2008 at 11:28am
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 11:43am
don't blame god for my not understanding what may be his message...if anything, it's a combination of my inability to grasp things which have no immediate discernable answer, and the fact that he has insisted upon choosing men to bring the message to us, rather than bring it to all of us himself.  If he could send gabriel to talk with muhammad...if he could talk to moses himself; why can't he do the same for me.


Well, from an Islamic point of view, the Qur'an represents the last and final scripture. That does not negate the idea that God can, and does, communicate to us. We are told that God communicates through three ways, sending of a messenger, from behind a barrier or veil, and through inspiration.

I would like to say that one thing Muhammad represents is the fact that an average person, the "joe blow" has the ability, when going through sincere effort, to be blessed by God with profound communication. Muhammad was a normal man, and he made efforts in the form of praying and meditating, then he received the first revelation, and continued to do so for 23 years of his life. The Qur'an itself hints at this when God says "And He found you [Muhammad] astray, then guided you".

No superman or divine, semi-divine being or sacrifice is required. Rather, the potential inside ourselves has to be explored to get that bounty of God Almighty.

May peace be upon God's messengers.
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by deep thought

"It wouldnt have been much of a sacrifice, if he didnt feel the pain or was delivered from the pain."
 
Well, one can also argue that it wasn't much of a sacrifice in that Jesus knew that he was God... Also,Jesus is time and time again said to make claims to being God... On the cross he cried out to God. hmmm, he cried to himself? He sacrificed himself so HE(being God) can forgive his own creation?
 
Just throwing my 2 cents in..
 
 
Hello, deep.  Good to see you back in the mix again.
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:21pm
waheed wrote: But if they never committed a crime, and are innocent of the crime their ancestor did, why should Jesus Christ "pay a price' on their behalf?
 
They are innocent of any crime committed by someone else.  But they will committ their own -- because it is in their nature -- and they need the opportunity to become justified before God, something that was lost by Adam.  Jesus gives then that opportunity with His sacrifice.
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 4:30pm
If you want to focus only on what appeared to happen and ignore the unseen features....
 
Yeah, I'll have to go with what "appeared" to hundreds or thousands of people, what the Apostles said, and -- most importantly -- what Jesus Himself about His death and resurrection, both before and after the fact.
 
"Unseen features."  And I thought muslims required "logic" in the faith.  You're really out there on that one, eldon.
 
 
...but don't say the verses I posted aren't in the NT!

 
Well, those verses and those words are there, but not the message you are conveying, IMO.
 
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Giovanni  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:46pm
Can Christians please do me a favor and stick to the topic of Jesus in Islam.  That means to all Christians and Muslims, please leave the Bible and all Christian writings out and stick to what you are trying to prove solely on the Qu'ran.  Otherwise start a new post "Jesus in Islam and Christianity". 
May the Love of God be With you.
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 7:54am
But they will committ their own -- because it is in their nature -- and they need the opportunity to become justified before God, something that was lost by Adam.  Jesus gives then that opportunity with His sacrifice.


That is the difference. Christians believe that Jesus paid the price for all people, whereas we are taught in Islam that each and every person is judged on their own works and merits.
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arafey  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote arafey Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2008 at 2:02am

Deleted post. My idea was already mentioned.



Edited by arafey - 12 April 2008 at 11:18am
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