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InterReligious Dialogue
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 3:54pm
I get all of that, amy; but we are talking about what we percieve as worship, right...look at everyones answers and you'll see that they are all very personal and they make up what that person deems to be a way to worship.
I never said anything about the person being innocent...again, that term is highly relative; no matter how innocent you may be, if i believe you to be guilty, and furthermore, if i believe god deems you guilty, then you would be such in my eyes.
The chrisitan/muslim arguments about the trinity are an example of such a thing...no matter how much christians proclaim their innocence, muslims think them guilty of idolatry or associating partners with god.  Both of you believe that your beliefs are based on the word of god, but such is the way of relativity.
I didn't ask this question with the intent to slam muslims; no, not at all...i believe that anyone, regardless of their beliefs are capable of killing someone; i do, however, think that such allowing such a gray area to exist increases the chances of someone doing such a thing...but i think there exists a greater chance of such a thing happening if it can at all be condoned because it is, mayhaps mistakenly, associated with gods will.
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:02pm

I don't see it as a gray area at all.

But let me start at the beginning--the answers people have given as to what constitutes worship--they aren't personal answers. They aren't opinions. Many are the same answer simply in different words, and as far as I can tell, all are forms of worship condoned in Islam. Because Islam is not vague (or gray) on this at all but is actually very clear.
 
You can't just make stuff up and call it worship just because you want to. On the other hand, with the sincere intention to please God, there are all kinds of things we can do which would obviously be worship because it is obeying a commandment of God--being kind to someone, helping someone. It's worship because it is good and has been commanded.
 
On the other hand, what you suggested falls in the realm of what has been forbidden--so engaging in it cannot be worship. Just blatant murder--that is forbidden in Islam.
 
Is killing allowed? Well yeah it is, in self-defense always, and as a kind of punishment. So if it is one of those things then yeah it could be worship because that has been allowed and commanded by God.
 
But if it is something else... no, it can't be. Regardless of how much you want it to be. So it's not really a gray area at all.
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:34pm
Isn't self defense often times relative? 
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2008 at 4:40pm
These may not be grey areas in terms of ultimate judgment but they are in terms of the motivation for human behavour.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2008 at 12:26am
It's not as "relative" as you make it out to be, I think.
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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 1:19am
So then israelis killing palestinians in self defence is justified?

Every recent incursion by the IDF has been instigated by a palestinian attack,

Personally I am opposed to the notion that every act can be an act of worship.

There are some acts that are simply not the will of G_d, one of which is the perpetuation of violence (even by a "martyr", whatever such a term is deemed to mean).
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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 1:24am
The reason I began this thread was simply to gauge the muslim definition of worship.

I have been doing much reading lately and encountered the term ibaadah.

Ibaadah it would seem is simply dedicating all 'halal' acts to G_D.

worship, then is not the act itself, but its consecration to G_D,


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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 3:54am
I think your last statement is a fair assessment.
 
I also think your last statement in your other post above is accurate--something cannot be worship if it violates a commandment of God.
 
Regarding the Palestinian/Israeli issue, I'm glad you brought it up actually. If a killing is in self-defense, that is not the same as an attack. Let us suppose, for example, that a Palestinian begins to attack some Israelis--let's say, he is shooting them. The only way that he can be stopped is to disable him, and suppose he is shot and killed. He was the attacker--and the response would be a kind of self-defense. What is not self-defense, however, is for Israelis to respond by inflicting further harm on other people just because they are Palestinian, when they were not responsible for the attack. Likewise, if an Israeli began to inflict harm on some Palestinians (shooting them, perhaps) and was then disabled or killed to prevent him from doing more harm, that would be self-defense. A subsequent attack on innocent Israelis, however, would not be justified.
 
So, what is self-defense is justified. But many outbreaks of violence in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict are in fact not self-defense, but attacks on innocent people. (On both sides.) Therefore, those attacks are haraam, (forbidden) and cannot possibly be an act of worship because they violate a commandment of Allah.
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 4:58am
at a recent halaqa that i attended the teacher detailed the meanings of the oft-quoted hadith: "innama al-a'mal bi-l-niyyat,"
i think it has meaning of relevance to algebra's question.

the hadith is translated
"verily actions are by intentions"

the sheikh analyzed the implications of this hadith for three different classes of actions.
1- permissible actions
2- acts of worship
3- transactions

so in the tree cases the hadith adopts the following meanings.

in the first case.
"(permissible) actions are (rewarded) by intention"
an act which is otherwise insignificant (walking, working, eating, etc.) is elevated to the rank of worship when one intends by it to gain god's pleasure by serving his creation and his deen. thus the reward of such an act is no different than the reward of doing a voluntary act of worship (e.g. salat/prayer).

in the second case the hadith reads
"acts (of worship) are (validated) by intention"
if the intention behind our act of worship (e.g. salat, zakat or hajj) is to show off and gain worldly acclaim then the act of worship is invalidated. for worship to be considered valid we must intend it solely for allah.

the third category (of transations) is not relevant to the present discussion. i believe the ideas expressed here in support (some of) the ideas you put forth and that were seconded by sister amy above.
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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

. (On both sides.) Therefore, those attacks are haraam, (forbidden) and cannot possibly be an act of worship because they violate a commandment of Allah.


I am glad you said both sides, since I too object to the zionist (not israeli) agenda.
I would rather not digress and talk about israelis and palestinians.
But my two cents on the subject is that palestinians must consolidate at this point, and make a concerted effort to make peace with israel.
I am also in favour of israel threatening a hard line stance against palestinians with such horrifying consequences for palestinians that further action against israel would be unthinkable. (WWII ended real quick after hiroshima, this being just an example...not a suggestion)
This would effectively end the war of attrition that is taking place now.
My exposure to the muslim community has shown me that there is biased support for the palestinian cause, and support for a palestinian state by any means necesary.



Edited by algebra - 05 April 2008 at 6:03pm
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:14pm
Like Algebra, most ignorant people around the world have no idea why it is that the Palestinians are fighting in the first place, thanks to the one-sided way it is potrayed in the media.  This very brief article screams for justice.

Today we marked land day in Palestine and among Palestinian communities around the world.  Land day events were started by Palestinians inside the "Green Line" (Palestine 1948) in 1976 to mark the Palestinian attachment to our land, a land that is methodically being taken over by the Zionist project.  A story from my visit with an old gentleman  from the village of Aljaroshiya (Tulkarem district) illustrates the problem. This 75 year old man and his large family owned over 100 acres of very productive land.  For generations the family planted olive and almond trees and did extremely well even exporting products to as far away as Syria.  One day he found "orders" hung on a tree that says the land is now taken over for unspecified "security reasons" (which is how most Palestinian land is confiscated).  The order ironically came from the “"Custodian of Absentee Property”" (the agency charged with managing ethnically-cleansed Palestinian homes and lands). The apartheid wall was then built to separate his house from the agricultural land.  The wall was planned shifted and twisted to include this rich land that used to export 12 tons of olive oil and hundreds of kilos of almonds (clearly a land theft with not a single shred of security issues involved). Before they showed us the orders, the family showed us the land which is now separated from their house by the network of electrified fences. The old man had a stroke after his land was taken over and as a result is now incapacitated.  As he teared, he lamented  that the loss of land is worse than the death of a child because a child is buried but the land is dying every day in front of him behind this monstrous fence and he could not do anything about it and could not bury it and move on.
 
This is just one of thousands of similar stories.  530 Palestinian villages and towns completely depopulated between 1947-1950,  More in 1967 and beyond.  6,000 homes demolished in the past 7 years, and on and on.

May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 6:16pm
And the fact that Algebra is in favor of a total genocide shows just how biased and unjust he is.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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Urooj  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Urooj Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by algebra

Personally I am opposed to the notion that every act can be an act of worship.


That's actually something that attracts me towards Islam, if my intention is to please Allah, then even eating food can also be an act of worship.
Nisar main teri galiyon k, ay watan, k jahan
Chali hai rasm k koi na sar utha k chalay..!!
Hai ehl e dil k liye ab ye nazm e bast o kushad
K sang o khisht muqayyid hain aur sag azaad..!!
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 05 April 2008 at 10:35pm
Algebra -  do you expect Muslims to be un biased about their support for Palestine?  They are our brothers and sisters in Islam... 
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com
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