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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 4:43pm
I am surprised that so much looting and killing didnt raise red flags for you.
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 4:56pm
You are amusing sometimes.. :)

Like Waheed said:
You have read one or two incidents, which were in the context of conflict...

It seems as though you have pre programmed yourself to ignore the context of the incidents.

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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 5:03pm
im sorry but the whole point of this thread was to define worship in the islamic context

No matter the justification - violence cannot be viewed as a positive act of worship; essentially every violent act is contrary to the will of G_D. Even though that act may be a necessary evil.

The "context" is irrelevant.

As I stated earlier, a religious jew may actually believe he is performing his religious duty by reclaiming jerusalem and rebuilding the Temple.





Edited by algebra - 08 April 2008 at 5:05pm
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devd  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote devd Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 9:12pm

im sorry
[/algebra]

Me too.

Originally posted by algebra


but the whole point of this thread was to define worship in the islamic context


ok

Originally posted by algebra


No matter the justification - violence cannot be viewed as a positive act of worship;


I disagree with that statement.

Originally posted by algebra


essentially every violent


Whoa, hold on there Cochise. "Essentially every," is not the same as, "No matter the justification." You see, one of them is an absolutism the other leaves room for variance. Now, I know the term, "essentially," is used often to represent, "yeah there's variance but those variances are trivial," but variance is variance and doesn't need a quality specifier to give it meaning. But I'm being pedantic...please see my first comment.

Originally posted by algebra


contrary to the will of G_D.


Surely you have plucked wisdom from the vanity faire that is today's world if you are bold enough to pass judgement thusly.

Originally posted by algebra


The "context" is irrelevant.


Surely your wisdom falters if you believe this. Perhaps it falters elsewhere, too?

Edited by devd - 08 April 2008 at 9:15pm
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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:56am
Originally posted by devd



Originally posted by algebra


No matter the justification - violence cannot be viewed as a positive act of worship;


I disagree with that statement.


Ofcourse you would, you are muslim, you are required to believe that violence is ordained by G_D.

Originally posted by devd


Originally posted by algebra


essentially every violent


Whoa, hold on there Cochise. "Essentially every," is not the same as, "No matter the justification." You see, one of them is an absolutism the other leaves room for variance. Now, I know the term, "essentially," is used often to represent, "yeah there's variance but those variances are trivial," but variance is variance and doesn't need a quality specifier to give it meaning. But I'm being pedantic...please see my first comment.


since we are being pedantic, and I being a jew; love being pedantic.
I just thought i would let you know that "essentially" DOES NOT represent in 'yeah there's variance but those variances are trivial'

Essentially here is the defintion of 'essentially' -
1. Constituting or being part of the essence of something; inherent.
2. Basic or indispensable; necessary: essential ingredients. See Synonyms at indispensable.






Originally posted by algebra


contrary to the will of G_D.


Surely you have plucked wisdom from the vanity faire that is today's world if you are bold enough to pass judgement thusly.


Not quite - if you bothered to read the entire thread you would see how I have logically deduced a violent act being contrary to the will of G_D.

Originally posted by devd


Originally posted by algebra


The "context" is irrelevant.


Surely your wisdom falters if you believe this. Perhaps it falters elsewhere, too?


save me the platitudes; I am not sure how my wisdom falters -please elucidate

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devd  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote devd Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 2:56am
Originally posted by algebra


Ofcourse you would, you are muslim, you are required to believe that violence is ordained by G_D.


Red herring.

Originally posted by algebra


...definition and stuff...


freedictionary.com is awesome, but like most things if you don't approach it with the proper mindset you won't be able to take full advantage of what it offers. "Essence," is the figurative heart of something, the removal of which would cause that something to no longer possess the characteristics that make it, "something." It would become, "something else." It is not an absolute, however. The essence of something may be indispensable to it's nature, but it is not the sum total of it's qualities. It's those other qualities, that are non-essential to it's ultimate nature but qualities that inform and describe it nonetheless, that are trivialized when someone uses the adverb, "essentially," to describe something.

Originally posted by algebra


Not quite - if you bothered to read the entire thread you would see how I have logically deduced a violent act being contrary to the will of G_D.


So the context of this thread needs to be considered when deciding if your comment about the will of God (swt) is condescending judgement or logical conclusion?

Originally posted by algebra


save me the platitudes; I am not sure how my wisdom falters -please elucidate


Context is important within this universe of discourse because taking care of yourself, your family, your community - when done with the right intention is a form of worship - includes protection from those intent on causing physical harm. Whether that means shooting the rabid dog attacking the neighbors child or shooting the psychopath that kicks in your door at 2:00AM. The methods in those cases are violent but the purpose is righteous and results in the dispatching of the responsibility you have to take care of yourself, your family, your community.

The violent act itself, taken in a vacuum, could in no way be construed to be worship. But viewed as part of a process...in the context of its usage...could be considered worship.



Edited by devd - 09 April 2008 at 3:04am
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 9:08am
Originally posted by algebra

At best we can call an act of violence a "necessary evil".

Any person (including a prophet) that perpetuates violence is perpetuating evil.
 
Perpetuates is a mighty big word, when in actuality it is beyond the ability of any man to truly perpetuate anything.
 
I can think of some examples from the Bible though, that show that "violence" has been enacted by prophets and still will be, NOT to perpetuate violence, but as you note to necessarily rid humanity of evil.
 
In Numbers 25, the son of Aaron, Phineas kills an Israelite man and a Midianitish woman who were fornicating after 24,000 Israelites had already died from a plague sent because of their fornication and idolatry.
 
Verse 11 quotes the LORD saying, Phineas hath turned away My Wrath from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them...
 
Chapter 15 of 1Samuel, describes how the Prophet Samuel hewed Amalekite king Agag in pieces, after King Saul had spared his life in disobedience to YHWH's command.
 
And of course, from Revelation19, we see that Jesus will slaughter the assemblied kings of the earth and their armies upon his return, to do away with evil doers.
 
All of those are biblical examples of Prophets necessarily doing violent acts to do away with evil, not to "perpetuate violence". Peace be upon all the Prophets and believers. 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 9:28am
Originally posted by algebra

The Sealed Nectar, I am not sure who the author is, but its a very flattering text.

Islamic Monotheism, Bilal Phillips

Perhaps the most controversial book I read that referred to the prophet was

Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet by Karen Armstrong; It was this book that first planted the seeds of doubt in my mind about the 'prophethood' of Mohammed.

Even though Karen attempted to put a positive spin on the killing and looting by claiming it was the moral standard of the day, I could never go back to seeing the prophet in a positive light.

Originally I attempted to accept it by claiming that the moral standard of arabs back then did not apply today, but eventually I came to wonder how islam could be relevant today if,

1) the moral standards of the people at that time were so low

2) Islam could never be changed to reflect the higher moral standard we hold ourselves to today.


I have both the sealed necter and Bilal Phillips book on Tauheed. The latter work is by no means any sort of biography of the Prophet, while the former, despite being popular, is not a good biography, in my opinion.

It simply repeats traditions without much explanation or placing things in their context. If you want to see why things occurred in the Prophet's life, how these events happened and even if  in fact certain things attributed to the Prophet are actually true, then I recommend very strongly the two books on him, again, The life of Muhammad by Haykal, and Muhammad the Prophet by Maulana Muhammad Ali.

No Muslim "believes in violence". I think that's simply oversimplistic.

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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by devd



Red herring.



Not quite, a non muslim that took that stance would have some other reason for justifying violence, but as a muslim the overarching reason for you is that in your holy book violence is mandated by god for believers.

Sure you may have other reasons to justify the stance to yourself, but even if there were none, you would not be off the hook, you would still have to believe that violence is an act of worship.


Originally posted by devd



So the context of this thread needs to be considered when deciding if your comment about the will of God (swt) is condescending judgement or logical conclusion?



Au contraire, nothing I said was subjective, I asked you to read the thread because there was a logical flow, which had nothing to do with the context of the thread, but rather a question of incomplete information.

You simply did not have complete information to understand the arguement.

Hence read the thread, get complete information, and you will know.


Context is important within this universe of discourse because taking care of yourself, your family, your community - when done with the right intention is a form of worship - includes protection from those intent on causing physical harm. Whether that means shooting the rabid dog attacking the neighbors child or shooting the psychopath that kicks in your door at 2:00AM. The methods in those cases are violent but the purpose is righteous and results in the dispatching of the responsibility you have to take care of yourself, your family, your community.

The violent act itself, taken in a vacuum, could in no way be construed to be worship. But viewed as part of a process...in the context of its usage...could be considered worship.



No - at best it can be considered  a necessary evil.

Perhaps the attacking psychopath is a father desperate to feed his 2 year old child.

Sure I will kill him, but it doesnt change the nature of my act as being a necesary evil.

Taken one step further, why would G_D ask muslims to forgive rather than exact revenge, if it revenge was nothing but an evil necesitated by your grief.


Edited by algebra - 09 April 2008 at 6:27pm
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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by eldon

 
Perpetuates is a mighty big word, when in actuality it is beyond the ability of any man to truly perpetuate anything.
 
I can think of some examples from the Bible though, that show that "violence" has been enacted by prophets and still will be, NOT to perpetuate violence, but as you note to necessarily rid humanity of evil.
 
In Numbers 25, the son of Aaron, Phineas kills an Israelite man and a Midianitish woman who were fornicating after 24,000 Israelites had already died from a plague sent because of their fornication and idolatry.
 
Verse 11 quotes the LORD saying, Phineas hath turned away My Wrath from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them...
 
Chapter 15 of 1Samuel, describes how the Prophet Samuel hewed Amalekite king Agag in pieces, after King Saul had spared his life in disobedience to YHWH's command.
 
And of course, from Revelation19, we see that Jesus will slaughter the assemblied kings of the earth and their armies upon his return, to do away with evil doers.
 
All of those are biblical examples of Prophets necessarily doing violent acts to do away with evil, not to "perpetuate violence". Peace be upon all the Prophets and believers. 


None of those cases refute the notion that violence is a necessary evil, in so far that all those fornicators would have had dependents, who were wronged by the killing of their providers.

However we must choose the lesser of the two evils.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 10:29pm
How do you know what is the lesser of two evils?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 9:02am
Originally posted by algebra



None of those cases refute the notion that violence is a necessary evil...
[/QUOTE]
 
I think the proper view is that OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S LAWS (which sometimes includes "violence" against evildoers) IS A NECESSARY GOOD.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 11:52am
Whenever I really read the Qur'an, I see in it such a profound message about worship, a message that transcends labels and tradition. What I mean by that is that here we are, debating whether violence is ever acceptable as a means to worship God, and yet in the Qur'an [as well as in the Sunnah] we have "worship" to mean not only observing prayer and fasting, but living the decent life, acting upon goodly principles, even sex is considered worship![Lawful sex anyways] .

There is a Hadeeth which says, in effect, that angels descend upon discussions about Allah. I think another wording of the same narration says "Sakeenah" meaning tranquility.

Even this discussion, if done with sincerity and not simply to debate, is an act of worship.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 2:00pm
waheed1 I agree with you, the quran does teach many noble thoughts, there is much that is positive in its message.

I would stop short of calling it divinely inspired, only because that would require me to accept all of it.

So I accept 99.99% of it as positive message, its just the 0.01% that is the deal breaker.


Edited by algebra - 10 April 2008 at 2:00pm
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