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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

How do you know what is the lesser of two evils?


The two evils are

1) Violence associated with Breaking the Law

2) Violence associated with Enforcing the Law

Which is the greater evil?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 2:16pm
I am asking you how you know in any case which of two evils is greater? How do you know that? How do you know whether the punishment is appropriate to the crime or greater, and what brings about more good, or more evil? How do you know??
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 2:22pm
So I accept 99.99% of it as positive message, its just the 0.01% that is the deal breaker.


That 0.01% seems to be just because you don't understand yet the significance of it. Earlier you have said because the Prophet did such and such..and I am saying that to be fair, examine that 0.01% completely. I highly recommend those two books on the Prophet. Even if you don't want to spend the money on the books, go to Borders, find the biography by Maulana Muhammad Ali, and read the last couple of chapters, which deals with the incidents you seem to be making reference to.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by waheed1


That 0.01% seems to be just because you don't understand yet the significance of it. Earlier you have said because the Prophet did such and such..and I am saying that to be fair, examine that 0.01% completely.


I will respond to this simply because I do not agree with your explanation of my not agreeing with the quran as being because of my ignorance.

I believe that I am familiar with the life of the prophet and his ideologies.

I accept that he was a great leader for his time, and a unifier of the people in the arabian peninsular, certainly he was a unifier of the arab tribes around him.

I have to say that knowing his life story and teachings has convinced me that the prophet was not a prophet, but an earthly leader, a man that was well intentioned (for the most part) but most of all, from what I know of his life he could never have been a prophet of G_D.


Edited by algebra - 10 April 2008 at 3:31pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 3:36pm
If Muhammad could never have been a Prophet of God, then what prompts you to accept 99.9 as positive and 0.001 as negative?

Muhammad acted as a Prophet, and believed himself a Prophet. All that is good from him, such as the Quran itself revealed to him. to reject his prophet hood yet accept that the majority of the scripture he preached and acted upon seems to be a contradiction to me.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

I am asking you how you know in any case which of two evils is greater? How do you know that? How do you know whether the punishment is appropriate to the crime or greater, and what brings about more good, or more evil? How do you know??


violence is inherently evil that is not the criteria.

The criteria is the purpose of the violence.

There are two criteria for violence.

1) Breaking the law

2) Upholding the law

Obviously the greater evil is breaking the law to commit a violent act, and violate someone else.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by waheed1

If Muhammad could never have been a Prophet of God, then what prompts you to accept 99.9 as positive and 0.001 as negative?

Muhammad acted as a Prophet, and believed himself a Prophet. All that is good from him, such as the Quran itself revealed to him. to reject his prophet hood yet accept that the majority of the scripture he preached and acted upon seems to be a contradiction to me.


Obviously Mohammed himself was a good great man. His teachings in the quran are good for the most part, but even the greatest of men are not infallible, even the greatest of men sin.

There are very few "teachings" in the quran that are tinged with sin, as there are a few things "recorded" in the Bible that are tinged with sin.

However the bible is a collection of stories written by men (good men to whom G_D revealed his purpose)- the reader is allowed the flexibility of seeing the pure existence G_D intended for man as revealed by the Bible writers, and the failings of all men, including men favoured by G_D.

The quran however is the word of god- it portrays itself as being perfect, yet it is tinged with sin. How can this be? this can mean only one thing, it is the work of human hands.




Edited by algebra - 10 April 2008 at 4:22pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:09pm
How do you know what is the greater evil though, algebra?
 
Sorry if you think I'm beating a dead horse... I just don't think you've answered the question yet.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:19pm

How do I know that breaking the law is the greater evil?

Think of it as a cancer operation, although the cancer is worse, the operation itself is not good for the body, it would be better not to operate, in fact with progressing technology we can control the cancer better without the need to operate, sometimes however the operation is necessary (until we have a better means of containing the cancer)
 
The creation of jail to contain the cancers of societies is the same idea - it certainly beats chopping hands off, in fact it is completely inline with the standards of compassion we have today.

Because the law keeps order one simply studies the consequences of breaking the law to realise that anarchy resulting from a free for all is worse than the violence associated with cutting out the cancer that creates the anarchy.

None the less neither act is inherently positive.



Edited by algebra - 10 April 2008 at 5:25pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

How do you know what is the greater evil though, algebra?
 
Sorry if you think I'm beating a dead horse... I just don't think you've answered the question yet.
I have to agree with you, amy.
In most cases, it might just be obvious that breaking the law is the greater evil; but as is often the case, lines can get blurred and it can be hard to tell.
The abuse of power by those who wield it is indisputable and as such, tends to blur the line.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:38pm
I'm not talking about breaking the law or upholding it. Just two evils in general. How is it "obvious" which is greater evil?
 
But if I give you an example... here. Suppose someone steals bread to feed his family. What is the greater evil... theft? Or punishing a man who had no other way to survive? How do you know?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:47pm
Breaking the law is the greater evil.

The law is the line that divides civil society from anarchy, breaking the law does infinitely more damage (to every one) than upholding the law.

What if the man had no other way to survive because in the past he squandered every opportunity to teach him a skill and become a valuable person to society?

You realise that we could go on like this ad inifinitum, the line we draw in the sand (called the law) keeps society safe and intact.

Crossing the line destabilises society as a whole, and creates anarchy.


Edited by algebra - 10 April 2008 at 5:47pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 5:58pm
How do you know what the greater evil is? Just from your opinion?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2008 at 6:15pm
No, because the consequences of breaking the law can be observed!

You have sensory organs, you can observe the effects of anarchy.

The breakdown of law and order creates anarchy. Anarchy leads to the breakdown of society.

I know where you are trying to go with this, just remember that the vast majority of the worlds societies did not have the guidance of the so called semitic "prophets".

Genghiz Khan ran one of the largest and most law abiding empires in the history of the world.
Ashoka in India ran a very law abiding society in the sub continent.

The Romans and Greeks created lawful societies, without the guidance of prophets.

They KNEW what was right and wrong, they knew the greater wrong, and they took steps to curtail the greater wrong.

Neither of them had laws of semitic origin.

The reason they had these laws was not because G_D told them to have these laws, but rather because they observed the consequences of the lack of law. i.e. anarchy. They then decided that the lesser evil is to punish the law breaker.


Edited by algebra - 10 April 2008 at 6:18pm
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