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InterReligious Dialogue
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:34am
algebra, I think you're assuming that a woman's consent isn't required. I'm not convinced that your assessment is correct.
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by waheed1



Please read carefully. The Qur'an gives no instruction of the kind.



Yes it does, it implicitly states that a man could have sexual intercourse with a female captive.

I know you are married, so you must know that females (captives especially) are not going to be complicit in any sexual act. (in general)

Hence the only thing that happened was non consentual sex - rape.




A slave married becomes automatically freed. There is no rape in Islam. Pls read The religion of Islam by Muhammad Ali, pp.488-498. among other quotes, he writes:

It must be further borne in mind that neither the Qur'an nor the tradition anywhere speaks of th right of the master to have sexual intercourse with a slave. In other words, ownership is nowhere recognized as legalizing sexual relationship..



The main hadeeth you have made reference to is speaking of Mut'ah. Women went into these sort of arrangements willingly, and in Shi'a areas in Syria, Pakistan and Iran this is still practiced. In fact, in many places where shi'ah institutions exist, such as in Qum[Iran], students enter into this type of marriage. The Iranian president Rafsanjani actually recommended people do this because "normal marriage' was getting very expensive. This is not the same as rape. In mainstream Sunni tradition, Mut'ah is not allowed, and is seen as a type of prostitution.

In any case, humans themselves have finally outlawed slavery as well, so the argument really has no bearing on whether Qur'an is from God as well. The Bible did not outlaw slavery, but that does not mean it is [or is not] a book of Divine origin. One must also consider the time period and the culture in which these books have first originated.


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 1:54pm
waheed1, it is important to read the ahadith- they took 'captive' some excellent arab women.

captive = being held against your will

why would someone being held against their will engage in a "temporary" marriage, willingly?

I am afraid that the book you quoted directly contradicts the quran which explicitly states that a man can legally have sex with any woman he controls by force.

you seem to be confusing the status of captives and slaves.

captives were raped and then returned to their tribes, according to the quoted ahadith.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:06pm
I have been looking at my Hadeeth books and can only find one quote which remotely resembles the wording of your text. Have you read the book I quoted? If not, please obtain it, as it has too many details for me to post on whyIslam.

In war, people were captured. Sometimes, they are given back for a payment, sometimes set free. It's not like kidnapping women for rape.

How does the hadeeth you quoted say they were "raped" then returned?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:53pm
Well waheed1 as I explained to amy, you cannot have rape - if the concept of non-consentual sex in a legal relationship does not exist.

In other words, in islam - a man cannot rape his wife.

He is legally entitled to have sex with her whenever it is legally possible.

islam only deals with the legality of sexual intercourse.

Islam does not define non-consentual sexual intercourse in a legal relationship.

So I will never find the word 'raped' in the text of the ahadith, however given the situation we are left with no choice but to conclude that they raped the female captives.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 2:34pm
It seems that your view is now "well, there is no concept of rape in Islam, if the 'victim' legally belongs to you".

Well, that can go both ways. A man is obligated to satisfy the sexual needs of the wife as well, according to several Ahadeeth and has been explained in great detail, to the surprise of many observers, by Scholars such as Al-Ghazzali. See his Ihya 'Ulum id-deen, for example.

I have explained the whole 'captive' thing, so what else is left?

You feel that Islam was not for you, that's fine with me. I do believe, however, that since you still want to discuss it, to try to examine all the ideas to the best of your ability. In other words, I told you that there is no 'concubinage', that a married woman becomes free, that a mother becomes free, etc.. and you disagreed. I quoted a source for you to check out, and you said that source contradicted the Qur'an. Read the source first, then make that observation.

I'm the sort of person that whenever a source is quoted like that, I must get a hold of it. I encourage you to do the same.

Back to the subject at hand, I would also like to say that in Islam, there is suppose to be no force in marriage. Any forced or coerced marriage is Haraam. Even if people still force their kids into marriages without their consent, that does not mean Islam teaches that, on the contrary, it means that they are acting against Islam.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:11pm
You keep saying you have explained it, perhaps I am a bit dense - I dont get it?

Are you telling me that the captive women willingly submitted to sexual intercourse with their captors?

perhaps we need to summarise just to get an idea of where both of us are.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 1:16pm
Okay, I am going to share an observation of a Qur'an translator, Muhammad Ali, who is also the author of the book The religion of Islam, to which I referred to earlier. You may end up not agreeing with this, but I share this because at the very least, I want to show that there is more than one way to view Quranic teachings. You have said that the verse [4:24] contains something which seems, to you, to be contrary to what God would say, and I hope to show that the understanding sometimes imposed on the texts can be flawed, but nonetheless the text is still flawless.


It is thus forbidden to a  man that he should marry a woman who is already married. An exception is made, however, regarding those whom your right hand possess, by which expression are generally meant in the Holy Qur'an those who are taken prisoner in war. It sometimes happened that such prisoners became converts to Islam, and therefore could not be sent back. Such women it was lawful to take in marriage, even though they might not have been divorced formally by their former husbands...



..I do not find any verse in the Holy Qur'an or in any instance in the Prophet's life, sanctioning what is called concubinage.On more occasions than one, when the establishment of conjugal relations with slave-girls is mentioned, their taking in marriage is clearly laid down as a condition as in v.3, v. 24, and this verse. Here marriage with those prisoners in war is allowed under certain circumstances, the first of these being that they should be believing women or Muslims. There are two more conditions: [1] that a man has not the means to marry a free woman as the opening words show, and [2] that he fears to fall into evil as stated in the concluding words. If, then, even marriage with her is allowed under exceptional circumstances, it is quite unreasonable to suppose that her master is allowed to have conjugal relations with her without taking her for a wife...perhaps the strictness of the rules regarding marriage with a female slave is due to the consideration that he who seeks her in marriage must first have her freed from slavery...


[Ali, Muhammad, pp. 196-197]

I hope this perspective helps. The theme of this thread was 'worship of Allah'. None of us are perfect, and without mistake or misunderstanding, but the Qur'an seeks as its primary mission to be a tool of assistance in someone's spiritual life. It speaks for all time, but also contains commands or directives meant for a pacific time or location, such as when it addresses the practice of dhihaar, an Arab form of divorce that  essentially leaves the woman in limbo. This should be kept in mind, and that does not negate the Qur'an as being from God.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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