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Sqaruesi
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sqaruesi Replybullet Topic: I can't work it out...
    Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:17am
As I understand it, a conceptual Muslim objection to the idea of Jesus' crucifixion is that God would never let such a thing happen to a great prophet of his.  It would be too shameful.
 
However, if I'm correct in gathering that God himself caused all witnesses to be convinced that Jesus really did die on a cross, how does this relieve Jesus of even a particle of the shame involved?  The effect on the world's view of Jesus is exactly the same.
 
Or at least it would have been for 600 years, until the Qur'an came along to clear matters up.
 
One can't help wondering why God didn't send the Qur'an (or the relevant part of it) to the very generation that was otherwise totally deceived, by their own senses, about what really happened to Jesus.
 
In a nutshell, why didn't God simply whisk Jesus away from the danger, leaving it clear to everyone's senses that that was what he did, just as Jesus himself evaded it several times before, e.g. when Herod tried to kill him as a child, or when the Jews tried to catch him but he purposely slipped through their fingers?
"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive."

Jesus (John 5:43)
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bayleaf  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bayleaf Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:26am
Even tho this is a question for Muslims, I must wonder...
 
Perhaps this isn't about God at all?
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:41am

That is a good question, sqaruesi.

One has to contemplate that if god, who is presumably all knowing, sent information that he knew would be misinterpreted; he must have done so on purpose.
Why didn't he just send the qur'an to moses or abraham and be done with it?
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:02am
First off, Allah acknowledged that the Jews killed some of His apostles:
 
2:87 We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of apostles; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you an apostle with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!
 
But He also told us the proper way to interpret that:
 
3:169 Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;
 
Whether you believe it was Jesus on the cross or not, in the eyes of Truth, the Jews killed him not nor crucified him.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:16am
Another thing:  the Bible says that Jesus "showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God". Acts 1:3
 
Yet we have very little of what he said during those forty days... perhaps he expanded upon the whole matter of his being and the doings on the cross.
 
And perhaps what he said was along the lines of what we have recorded in the Coptic Apocalypse of Peter:
 
"He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness.
 
or the Apocalypse of James:
 
The Lord said, "James, do not be concerned for me or for this people. I am he who was within me. Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm."
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 10:17am

Wouldn't god know that they were going to slay his apostles?

All of that still doesn't answer the question that was asked. 
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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mai moslemah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote mai moslemah Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 1:18pm
The fact is Jesus was not crucified and Allah send Quran to tell us the truth and correct the wrong believes , from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified
But don`t you see?that i am truely free? this piece of scarf on me;i wear so proudly to preserve my dignity,modesty & integrity....why can`t i just be me??? "i am the one who is free!!!!

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 1:27pm

.



Edited by struggle - 02 April 2008 at 1:29pm
EYE FOR EYE
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Giovanni  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

The fact is Jesus was not crucified and Allah send Quran to tell us the truth and correct the wrong believes , from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified


Such is not a fact, it is what you believe.  And the question has not been answered.
May the Love of God be With you.
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2008 at 9:45pm
All right, then why would God allow the church that bears the name of Christ and tells a flawed story about Jesus' death and resurrection to propagate this error and allow it to grow explosively in the centuries immediately following the events which Jesus' disciples intentionally or unintentionally misrepresented?
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 1:47am
Good questions
 
And my personal understanding of some aspects of the answer includes the following:
 
1- The crucifixtion was a test of faith for some (the true believers), and as mentioned above by Eldon, when they passed the test, within a few days they received reassurance that they were right in their belief in Jesus as a prophet, and that he was safe. Possibly, the relevant authentic scriptures were hidden later on by those who had interest in another version of what happened
 
2- The confusion which the crucifixtion caused was a punishment for others, those who witnessed all the amazing miracles God allowed Jesus, peace be upon him, to perform, and still asked for more miracles, the last being their request for a table with food from Heaven, described in Chapter 5 of The Qur'an. God gave them a clear warning when they asked for this last miracle that those who would disbelieve after witnessing it will be punished a severe punishment which He has not punished any people before. And that eventually happened with the confusion which prevailed among many people at the time
 
3- As for the following generations, there appeared false teachings about the trinity which misled many people over the centuries, though till the year 325 there still remained true believers who believed in pure monotheism, but they were a persecuted minority
 
4- After the First Council of Nicea, the upper hand was to be for the followers of the trinity. All scriptures which did not support the official idealogy of the Church was surpresed, and the remaining few who had the courage to maintain their belief in pure monotheism were further persecuted, and a very small number of people who new the Truth remained alive
 
5- Around 2 centuries later, when the Truth had ceased to exist, God sent His final Divine Revelation, The Qur'an, to inform humanity of what had happened to Jesus, peace be upon him, and to guide mankind to His Straight Path
 
Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Prophet sent by God to guide people to the Truth, which they mostly rejected
 
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was sent to complete the mission of all of God's prophets since Noah, and was allowed to establish a small state in Madinah to deffend the Truth against those who wanted it to be supressed. This time, God's final Guidance was to be protected from change and His Revelation was to remain intact for all generation to learn
 
That is my personal understanding of what happened between the departure of Jesus, and the message of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them both
 
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2008 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Good questions
 
 
2- The confusion which the crucifixtion caused was a punishment for others, those who witnessed all the amazing miracles God allowed Jesus, peace be upon him, to perform, and still asked for more miracles, the last being their request for a table with food from Heaven, described in Chapter 5 of The Qur'an. God gave them a clear warning when they asked for this last miracle that those who would disbelieve after witnessing it will be punished a severe punishment which He has not punished any people before. And that eventually happened with the confusion which prevailed among many people at the time
 
 
 
That is a very good point, one which I had not considered before.
 
About this table, according to Jesus' prayer recorded in the Quran, it was to be a solemn festival for the first and last Christians and a sign of sustenance for them. The occasion was most likely the feast of Passover on which Jesus was betrayed, commonly called The Last Supper.
 
At that supper, Jesus set a great example for all Christians to follow: saying, He that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. (Luke 22:26) After saying that, according to John's account, he humbled himself like a servant and washed the disciples' feet.
 
Christians fell away from that principle through the centuries though, as the church gained political power, influence, and wealth. Church leaders exalted themselves as rulers, took on servants, had other men to bow before them, kiss their rings, etc.
 
Perhaps that is the most specific act of disbelief among Christians --so much in contrast to the meek and lowly in heart Jesus-- that caused Allah to send astounding chastisement upon them.
 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:04am
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Good questions.  And my personal understanding of some aspects of the answer includes the following:
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

1- The crucifixtion was a test of faith for some (the true believers), and as mentioned above by Eldon, when they passed the test, within a few days they received reassurance that they were right in their belief in Jesus as a prophet, and that he was safe. Possibly, the relevant authentic scriptures were hidden later on by those who had interest in another version of what happened.


This is a good stab in the dark....however, even Jesus told the Samarian woman that the true worshippers (Jews who were of the Primitive Church- Christ set-up) knew who they worshiped....and they must worship the Father in spirit and in truth.

New Testament | John 4:22 - 24
22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

THE TEST OF FAITH:
Faith is believing in that which is unseen/unknown....which things are TRUE.  If that which is unseen/unknown is not true.....then that person's belief is in vain....for it has to be true in order for it to be considered "true faith."

If these "true believers/worshipers" believed in that which was not true....then they could not be "true believers."

New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:14 - 17
14  And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15  Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

2- The confusion which the crucifixtion caused was a punishment for others, those who witnessed all the amazing miracles God allowed Jesus, peace be upon him, to perform, and still asked for more miracles, the last being their request for a table with food from Heaven, described in Chapter 5 of The Qur'an. God gave them a clear warning when they asked for this last miracle that those who would disbelieve after witnessing it will be punished a severe punishment which He has not punished any people before. And that eventually happened with the confusion which prevailed among many people at the time.


Those who sought to kill Jesus and his apostles brought on their own damnation and brought about the darkness that covered the land.  After these great men were killed, the spirit of the Lord was grieved and withdrew from the earth....therefore came the Dark Ages and Mid-Evil Times....wherein the minds of men became darkened....for the "Light of the World" was taken from it.
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

3- As for the following generations, there appeared false teachings about the trinity which misled many people over the centuries, though till the year 325 there still remained true believers who believed in pure monotheism, but they were a persecuted minority.


Yes...the trinity theory is a false sectarian notion, it was contrived by uninspired minds who could not grasp the Godhead doctrine.  The term trinity as well as monotheism and polytheism are misunderstandings of scripture.  These are the theories of men.......they are not gospel doctrines set forth in the scriptures.
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

4- After the First Council of Nicea, the upper hand was to be for the followers of the trinity. All scriptures which did not support the official idealogy of the Church was surpressed, and the remaining few who had the courage to maintain their belief in pure monotheism were further persecuted, and a very small number of people who new the Truth remained alive.


There again...the term monotheism is a modern belief attempting to understand ancient teachings about the attributes of God.  It and the trinity theory were not coined until hundreds of years after the Spirit of God was taken from the earth.  In other words....there was a Universal Apostasy during the times that uninspired minds tried to grasp the ancient teachings of the Bible.
 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

5- Around 2 centuries later, when the Truth had ceased to exist, God sent His final Divine Revelation, The Qur'an, to inform humanity of what had happened to Jesus, peace be upon him, and to guide mankind to His Straight Path.


I do not doubt that the Angel Gabriel came to fulfill Jehovah's promise to Hagar, that he would not utterly forget her and her seed.  However, this promise to her and her seed did not include that the birthright of the House of Israel be taken from them and given to the descendants of Ishmael.  For this promise given to the House of Israel as an eternal inheritance.  It was given to Israel for his faithfulness and placed upon his descendency.  Therefore, that eternal blessing (of priesthood authority) cannot be stripped from him and given to another's descendency.

It is apparent that Muhammad had his own misconceptions about Jesus and the role that he played for humanity.  Therefore, Muhammad interjected these misconceptions using the Angel Gabriel as his validation.

Just a side note....it is not the straight path...as in a straight line....but this path is a nautical term....STRAIT.  Such as when someone says that they are in "dire straits."  It is a narrow path with dangerous curves, juts, and turns.....such as life.  For a person to come too close to the edge can cause them to be crushed against the jagged rocks and fall to their destruction below.

New Testament | Matthew 7:13 - 14
13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14  Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Here are other scriptures that expound upon this strait and narrow way...


Old Testament | Job 36:15 - 16

15  He delivereth the poor in his affliction, and openeth their ears in oppression.
16  Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness.

Old Testament | Isaiah 49:19 - 20
19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
20  The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.


Old Testament | Jeremiah 19:8 - 9
And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
9  And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.


Old Testament | Lamentations 1:3

Judah is gone into captivity because of affliction, and because of great servitude: she dwelleth among the heathen, she findeth no rest: all her persecutors overtook her between the straits.

New Testament | Philippians 1:21 - 23
21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22  But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23  For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

 
Originally posted by Al-Cordoby

Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Prophet sent by God to guide people to the Truth, which they mostly rejected
 
Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was sent to complete the mission of all of God's prophets since Noah, and was allowed to establish a small state in Madinah to deffend the Truth against those who wanted it to be supressed. This time, God's final Guidance was to be protected from change and His Revelation was to remain intact for all generation to learn
 
That is my personal understanding of what happened between the departure of Jesus, and the message of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them both


More later........


Edited by Janet Waters - 06 April 2008 at 3:10am
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Al-Cordoby  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Al-Cordoby Replybullet Posted: 06 April 2008 at 1:29am
Hello Janet
 
Thank you for your post. These are a few answers
 
1- Monotheism, i.e. the belief in the One and Only true Creator and Sustainer of the universe, is not a theory and it's not new
 
It is the same message preached by all of God's prophets, from Adam and Noah to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad, peace be upon them all
 
2- Prophet Ishmael is the son of Prophet Abraham, peace be upon them both, and a great grandfather of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
 
"The full legitimacy of Ishmael as Abraham's son and "seed" and the full legitimacy of his mother Hagar as Abraham's wife are clearly stated in Genisis 21:13 and 16:3"
 
 
3- Going back to the main topic of the thread, it is a Divine rule that when God shows people a miracle which they asked for and they still deny His prophets, these people are severely punished, more than ordinary people who disbelieve in God
 
This is what happend in the case of many earlier nations who disbelieved their prophets which are mentioned in the Qur'an
 
In the case of Jesus, peace be upon him, God allowed him to perform many miracles, to the point of giving life back to the dead, but still many people refused to believe
 
When they asked Jesus for God to send them down a table from heaven this is what God said:
 
115- Allah said, "Indeed, I will send it down to you but whoever disbelieves afterwards from among you - then indeed I will punish him with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the worlds." (5:115)
 
That punishment for those who disbelieved was confusion, a punishment which was later made worse by man-made changes in the teachings of God which Jesus, peace be upon him, conveyed to people ...
 
 
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