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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:23pm
Originally posted by eldon

[QUOTE=StoryMing]
It was only later that the disciples realized that Jesus was somehow saved from death as Hebrews 5:7 implies. Likewise the substitutionary ideas that Paul writes about were not revealed until well after Jesus had left the earth. (2Corinthians 5:21, Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:16,  Romans 8:3)
 
Though most Christians cling absolutely to Jesus' actual crucifixion and resurrection, they have enough information in the NT to see what the Quran implies by the brief mention of the crucifixion therein, even though they won't believe any of the Muslim theories listed above.
 
 
 Eldon.. The verses you posted give absolutely no credance to your claim about Jesus saved from a death on the cross Or even implies it. You do. Infact some of them within a few verses after or before clearly show that.
 Are you now going to suggest that the Bible no-where says Jesus died on the cross, and further more never rose from the dead ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by eldon

 It is a Scriptural Christian teaching that the old sin nature of  believers died on the cross, which is certainly not was Jesus himself was, so there is the Christian sort of substitution which the Quran hints at.
 
Of course Jesus was not of a sin nature. The Christian teaching of substitution works the other way: that HE substituted for US, that he took on the penalty and punishment that we deserved; hence, that our sin nature died with him, or in him, on the cross-- not "instead of" him.
 
Originally posted by eldon

Though most Christians cling absolutely to Jesus' actual crucifixion and resurrection, they have enough information in the NT to see what the Quran implies by the brief mention of the crucifixion therein, even though they won't believe any of the Muslim theories listed above.
 
First of all, I have to emphatically disagree that "what appeared to happen was the will of Allah and was true enough to die for", if in fact what appeared to happen was not what actually happened.
 
Secondly, I see no point in the history of the church at which the disciples ever stopped talking about the crucifixion and began taking about Jesus being saved from death in the manner the Qu'ran indicates. Each of the verses you list demonstrates this point: In each case the problem seems to be that you are not looking at the context of verses before and/or after the ones you cite. The first one comes the closest:
 
Hebrews 5:7 ...Jesus... offered up prayers and petitions... to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
 
Ah, very good; but what was his petition and his prayer? To be spared from death? No, his prayer (according to the gospels) was that God's will would be done (Mt 26:39, 42; Mk 14:38; Lk 22:42) and God's name glorified (John 12:27). The next verse, Hebrews 5:8, goes on to say that he learned obedience from what he suffered
 
The rest of the passages, in context, likewise speak of our old self being crucified with him (not instead of him), of being buried with him in baptism and being raised with him from the dead. They speak of having been brought near through the blood of Christ, of his having destroyed "the dividing wall of hostility" in his flesh. and of his having been sent to be a sin offering.
 
We can argue the corruption of texts endlessly, we can argue forever whether the Bible or the Qu'ran is right, but the information we are given in the NT does not at any point indicate what the Qu'ran says, that Jesus was kept safe, that the crucifixion was an appearance only, or that our sin nature somehow replaced Jesus on the cross.
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:47am
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13
 
StoryMing, you and Damo are overlooking the essential nature of Jesus:  he was a man made in the likeness of sinful flesh according to Scripture, but he was also the word & spirit of Allah.
 
His own words there in John 3:13 indicate that he was ever present in heaven, not bound to bodily presence on earth.
 
If you'd read Foxes Book of Martyrs, you'd see that several disciples of Jesus also attained such a heavenly presence that even as their bodies were being burned to death, they were singing hymns of praise.
 
Is it really accurate to say that such people were killed?  It's more like they were set free to fully live.
 
Especially in Jesus' case, his apparent death was the effectual means for death to sin being accomplished as prefigured in the Day of Atonement, so that all believing Israelites could go free unto eternal life, as did Jesus from the cross.
 
Considering all that, the Quran's statement that "they killed him not, but so it was made to appear to them" can be seen as accurate.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by eldon

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13
 
StoryMing, you and Damo are overlooking the essential nature of Jesus:  he was a man made in the likeness of sinful flesh according to Scripture, but he was also the word & spirit of Allah.
 
His own words there in John 3:13 indicate that he was ever present in heaven, not bound to bodily presence on earth.
 
If you'd read Foxes Book of Martyrs, you'd see that several disciples of Jesus also attained such a heavenly presence that even as their bodies were being burned to death, they were singing hymns of praise.
 
Is it really accurate to say that such people were killed?  It's more like they were set free to fully live.
 
Especially in Jesus' case, his apparent death was the effectual means for death to sin being accomplished as prefigured in the Day of Atonement, so that all believing Israelites could go free unto eternal life, as did Jesus from the cross.
 
Considering all that, the Quran's statement that "they killed him not, but so it was made to appear to them" can be seen as accurate.
 
 But martyrdom strictly speaking refers to one who suffers for a cause. The saints who suffered martyrdom suffered .. even while singing praises to God. To suggest otherwise is to make martyrdom mean only something of a supernatural encounter rather than an example of absolute devotion prior to their death.
 
 John 3:13 only points to Jesus as ever present in heaven throughout time only having desended once to take the likeness of Man, then assending back to where He had been. Especially as no mortal man had died and gone to heaven since  Adam until Christ's Crucifixion, which begs the question why was only Jesus ever present in heaven.
 
 Apocalypse 1:18: And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 But martyrdom strictly speaking refers to one who suffers for a cause. The saints who suffered martyrdom suffered .. even while singing praises to God. To suggest otherwise is to make martyrdom mean only something of a supernatural encounter rather than an example of absolute devotion prior to their death.
 
Life itself (if we live it right) is "only something of a supernatural encounter" despite the sufferings we go through here. So much more is martyrdom, despite whatever degree of suffering is experienced.
 
When I read of martyrs singing while dying in the flames, I perceive the reality of supernatural transcendance that dwarfs and belittles the apparence of death.
 
 John 3:13 only points to Jesus as ever present in heaven throughout time only having desended once to take the likeness of Man, then assending back to where He had been. Especially as no mortal man had died and gone to heaven since  Adam until Christ's Crucifixion, which begs the question why was only Jesus ever present in heaven.
 
On the contrary, I see John 3:13 as indicative of Jesus being present in spirit IN heaven even as he was speaking here upon earth. He also prayed that his followers would experience that same reality while here upon earth:
 
Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am... John 17:24
 
and the apostle Paul recognized that Jesus prayer had been answered for the believers:
 
But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-6
 
 
 
 Apocalypse 1:18: And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
 
 
Yes, I believe that Jesus "tasted death for every man" inasmuch as he was able, yet seeing that he was ever present alive in heaven makes a plain difference between his apparent death and the death of any other man whose spirit and body remain separated until the Day of Resurrection.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:36pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo808

 
 But martyrdom strictly speaking refers to one who suffers for a cause. The saints who suffered martyrdom suffered .. even while singing praises to God. To suggest otherwise is to make martyrdom mean only something of a supernatural encounter rather than an example of absolute devotion prior to their death.
 
Life itself (if we live it right) is "only something of a supernatural encounter" despite the sufferings we go through here. So much more is martyrdom, despite whatever degree of suffering is experienced.
 
When I read of martyrs singing while dying in the flames, I perceive the reality of supernatural transcendance that dwarfs and belittles the apparence of death.
 
 John 3:13 only points to Jesus as ever present in heaven throughout time only having desended once to take the likeness of Man, then assending back to where He had been. Especially as no mortal man had died and gone to heaven since  Adam until Christ's Crucifixion, which begs the question why was only Jesus ever present in heaven.
 
On the contrary, I see John 3:13 as indicative of Jesus being present in spirit IN heaven even as he was speaking here upon earth. He also prayed that his followers would experience that same reality while here upon earth:
 
Father, I will that they also, whom Thou hast given me, be with me where I am... John 17:24
 
and the apostle Paul recognized that Jesus prayer had been answered for the believers:
 
But God who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:4-6
 
 
 
 Apocalypse 1:18: And alive, and was dead, and behold I am living for ever and ever, and have the keys of death and of hell.
 
 
Yes, I believe that Jesus "tasted death for every man" inasmuch as he was able, yet seeing that he was ever present alive in heaven makes a plain difference between his apparent death and the death of any other man whose spirit and body remain separated until the Day of Resurrection.
 
 
Eldon.. much of what your projecting here seems to be based on your own opinion without much in the way of support.
 
 Further if he was in heaven while here on earth in the flesh why does John 17.13 say: "But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely."
 
Why say this if he was already present in Heaven ?
You say Jesus "tasted death inasmuch as he was able". .. How was he able ? He either died or did not.. how can one experience death to an extent if thats what you implying.
 
 Romans 5- 8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 
 Or 1 Peter 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 9:44am
Eldon.. much of what your projecting here seems to be based on your own opinion without much in the way of support.
 
 
On the contrary, Damo, much of what I'm saying goes back to the Catholic catechism I learned as a child.
 
Jesus' words in John 3:13 are used in the catechism to confer "omnipresence" upon Jesus while he was here upon earth. Though I no longer accept the idea of Jesus being omnipresent, I do recognize that he had some sort of presence in heaven even while he was here on earth.
 
 Further if he was in heaven while here on earth in the flesh why does John 17.13 say: "But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely."
 
Why say this if he was already present in Heaven ?

Because his body was still upon earth at that point in time, and he realized that he would soon be taken bodily into heaven.

 


You say Jesus "tasted death inasmuch as he was able". .. How was he able ? He either died or did not.. how can one experience death to an extent if thats what you implying.
 
The same way that one can experience life in the body to the extent that Jesus did, yet maintained some sort of heavenly presence at the same time.
 
 Romans 5- 8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 
 Or 1 Peter 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Those verses don't say that Jesus' presence in heaven was ever broken.
 
Even if you believe the "my God, my God, Why have you forsaken me"  cry from the cross to be Jesus' actual lament instead of him quoting Psalm 22 in its fulfillment, nevertheless, at the end, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, showing he maintained that heavenly connection.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:08pm
Eldon.. much of what your projecting here seems to be based on your own opinion without much in the way of support.
 
 
On the contrary, Damo, much of what I'm saying goes back to the Catholic catechism I learned as a child.
 
Jesus' words in John 3:13 are used in the catechism to confer "omnipresence" upon Jesus while he was here upon earth. Though I no longer accept the idea of Jesus being omnipresent, I do recognize that he had some sort of presence in heaven even while he was here on earth.
 
 Some sort of presence? He's either a normal man as the Quran would have him or not.
 
 Further if he was in heaven while here on earth in the flesh why does John 17.13 say: "But now I am coming to you. I speak this in the world so that they may share my joy completely."
 
Why say this if he was already present in Heaven ?

Because his body was still upon earth at that point in time, and he realized that he would soon be taken bodily into heaven.

 So your advocating the idea of omnipresence, while at the same time don't condone the idea. I mean your either omnipresent or not... and only that is attributable to God.
   

You say Jesus "tasted death inasmuch as he was able". .. How was he able ? He either died or did not.. how can one experience death to an extent if thats what you implying.
 
The same way that one can experience life in the body to the extent that Jesus did, yet maintained some sort of heavenly presence at the same time.
 
Again omnipresence. Are thre any examples of this in the Quran ?
 
 Romans 5- 8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
 
 Or 1 Peter 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Those verses don't say that Jesus' presence in heaven was ever broken.
 
 
 
Even if you believe the "my God, my God, Why have you forsaken me"  cry from the cross to be Jesus' actual lament instead of him quoting Psalm 22 in its fulfillment, nevertheless, at the end, he said Father into thy hands I commend my spirit, showing he maintained that heavenly connection.
 
 Is Jesus dual presense supported by any Islamic srcipture ?
 
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:29am
Some sort of presence? He's either a normal man as the Quran would have him or not.
 
The Quran doesn't say he was just a normal man, but the word and spirit of Allah, the Messiah, and a Messenger of Allah.
 
Such a person as he having greater awareness of Allah's Presence and being somehow present in heaven while here upon earth is no great stretch of faith. 
 
 So your advocating the idea of omnipresence, while at the same time don't condone the idea. I mean your either omnipresent or not... and only that is attributable to God.
 
I agree that omnipresence is attributable only to Allah. What Jesus was talking about would better be described as bi-location.
 
 
Is Jesus dual presense supported by any Islamic scripture ?
 
Well, there's this:
 

2:252 THESE are God's messages: We convey them unto thee, [O Prophet,] setting forth the truth-for, verily, thou art among those who have been entrusted with a message.

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: among them were such as were spoken to by Allah [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher. And We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth, and strengthened him with holy inspiration. . .

 
 
 
I think bi-location would certainly qualify as part of "all evidence of the Truth".
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 12:57pm
Is Jesus dual presense supported by any Islamic scripture ?
 
Well, there's this:
 

2:252 THESE are God's messages: We convey them unto thee, [O Prophet,] setting forth the truth-for, verily, thou art among those who have been entrusted with a message.

 Among those meaning those listed who came before him who had been entrusted.. Not in a litteral sense among them in bi-location, for the Christian teaching is that there was no-one since the time of Adam who had yet entered heaven up until the Crucifixion.

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: among them were such as were spoken to by Allah [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher. And We vouchsafed unto Jesus, the son of Mary, all evidence of the truth, and strengthened him with holy inspiration. . .

 
 
I think bi-location would certainly qualify as part of "all evidence of the Truth".
 
"All evidence of truth" from the Islamic perspective doesn't specify in any way a hint of bi-location... All evidence of truth meant simply that which was revealed to him by Allah regarding the oral gospel.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 7:45am
I didn't say it specified bi-location. You asked if there was any Islamic scripture which supported the idea of Jesus being present in heaven.
 
"All evidence of the truth" WAS given to Muhammad, also, via his miraculous presence in a visit to heaven, though the record of that event does not specify bi-location either.
 
It is Christian scripture that verifies Jesus having some sort of presence in heaven-- scripture quoting Jesus' own words at that! 
 
You should have no problem with it, and in keeping with my original point in bringing that passage up (John 3:13), realize that it is not accurate to say that someone was killed, when he was actually present somewhere else than the scene of the crime!
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:01am
StoryMing, you may not even be reading this thread any longer, but I want to address your point about 2Corinthians 5:21 being interpreted as  Jesus "having been sent to be a sin offering".
 
I realize that is the most popular Christian interpretation of that text and that is the interpretation that I also temporarily accepted while I was a Christian. It just didn't make any sense whatsoever to believe that "Jesus was made to be sin", as the text very specificly states.
 
Yet Galatians 3:13 confirms that same idea by saying that "Messiah became a curse for us". Jesus, in his own nature, was the direct opposite of sin and a curse, so those NT passages affirm a substitution that took place on the cross, howbeit not the same sort of substitution that most Muslims believe. 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 10:54am
Hi eldon, yes I'm still here.
Yes, if you look earlier in my post,  I already said I agree that a substitution of a sort took place.
 
Originally posted by storyming

] Of course Jesus was not of a sin nature. The Christian teaching of substitution works the other way: that HE substituted for US, that he took on the penalty and punishment that we deserved; hence, that our sin nature died with him, or in him, on the cross-- not "instead of" him.
 
The Christian doctrine of substitutiary atonement teaches that Jesus substituted for us- that HE took OUR place, not the other way around.
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by eldon

I didn't say it specified bi-location. You asked if there was any Islamic scripture which supported the idea of Jesus being present in heaven.
 
"All evidence of the truth" WAS given to Muhammad, also, via his miraculous presence in a visit to heaven, though the record of that event does not specify bi-location either.
 
It is Christian scripture that verifies Jesus having some sort of presence in heaven-- scripture quoting Jesus' own words at that! 
 
You should have no problem with it, and in keeping with my original point in bringing that passage up (John 3:13), realize that it is not accurate to say that someone was killed, when he was actually present somewhere else than the scene of the crime!
 
  Even if you suggest he was present in heaven at the time of the Crucifixion, he did suffer on the cross, with his body present in this world. Suffering to the point of death to which He gave up His Spirit.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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