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Islamway  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Islamway Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 3:46am
Why can't Christians get the fact that it's their religion that is an off shot of the religion of the prophets NOT Islam .. It's YOUR religion that is different and has different and foreign beliefs never taught by any prophet before.
And since our religion is in complete agreement with the religion of prophets .. we believe that God is one (and by one we mean one) .. and we believe that God is oft forgiving and most merciful .. He forgives all the sins.
 
So according to Islam, whether Jesus was killed or not, it has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins .. Muslim don't object to the idea of Jesus' crucifixion because God would never let such a thing happen to a great prophet of his, actually we believe many prophets were killed by their people .. we object to his crucifixion simply because it didn't happen .. that's all.
Actually, even according to the bible, people didn't link the death of Jesus to sacrifice and atonement of sins until his alleged appearance 3 days after his death .. before it people thought he was just another prophet killed.
The people who deceived Christians are those who made up the false beliefs of their religion .. not God.
 
[5:77] Say: O people of the book exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by, who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:52pm
 
 
 Gabriel in Daniel 9:26-27 specifically mentions that Christ would be slain and the events leading up to and afterwards.
 

26 And after sixty-two weeks Christ shall be slain: and the people that shall deny him shall not be his. And a people with their leader that shall come, shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be waste, and after the end of the war the appointed desolation. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

 
  Either Gabriel was incorrect or it was not Gabriel who spoke with Daniel if Muhammud is correct. Personally i'll stick with the Gabriel of old in Daniel.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Damo

Either Gabriel was incorrect or it was not Gabriel who spoke with Daniel
 
OR Gabriel's words were mistranslated in the version you quoted!
 
The KJV says "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."
 
The specific Hebrew word there is karath meaning to cut, by implication to destroy or consume, but specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces). That is Strong's Hebrew Lexicon's definition of the word.
 
"slain" is a mistranslation.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2008 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

Either Gabriel was incorrect or it was not Gabriel who spoke with Daniel
 
OR Gabriel's words were mistranslated in the version you quoted!
 
The KJV says "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself..."
 
The specific Hebrew word there is karath meaning to cut, by implication to destroy or consume, but specifically, to covenant (i.e. make an alliance or bargain, originally by cutting flesh and passing between the pieces). That is Strong's Hebrew Lexicon's definition of the word.
 
"slain" is a mistranslation.
 
 I missed this one...
 
 Here's the Jewish translation
 
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one be cut off, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease; and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.'
 
 
  So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'. Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merly transended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 But you may mention the omition of the word Christ, it would be hard to find any other character in the Bible who met all the criteria of this prophesy other than Jesus himself.


out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:59am
Originally posted by Damo

So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'.
 
"be no more (upon earth)" surely you don't think the Hebrew translation there is suggesting that the human spirit of Messiah (anointed one) would be discarded or vaporized rather than returning to Yah who gave it?
 
His earthly term of life was ended, he did not die in the traditional sense of the word, with his body and spirit being separated until the day of resurrection.
 
Originally posted by Damo

Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merely transcended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 
Yes, I'm glad you can recognize that distinction, in a very literal sense he was saved from death, despite the fact that he appeared to die just as any other man would die.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:49pm
I'm sorry if someone already answered this and I missed it somewhere, but this has never made sense to me either; if Jesus was never actually crucified, but only appeared to be, why would Allah allow his disciples, followers of a true prophet, to remain in deception? Every one of them went to their deaths proclaiming and believing in the resurrection, but there can have been no resurrection if he was never killed.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jeffrey lee Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by mai moslemah

The fact is Jesus was not crucified and Allah send Quran to tell us the truth and correct the wrong believes , from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified
 
 
but the Qu'ran does not say this at all. it does not say that Jesus was protected by Allah and not crucified.
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:43am
Originally posted by jeffrey lee

Originally posted by mai moslemah

from the Quran we know that Allah protected prophet Jesus and he was not crucified
 
but the Qu'ran does not say this at all. it does not say that Jesus was protected by Allah and not crucified
 
 
Jeffrey, it is in the Qu'ran.  It says that Jesus was never crucified, "but it was made to appear so to them".
 
Can someone please tell me the sura where this is found, and what exactly it says? I know it's there. I've seen it.
 
 
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hannah114  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hannah114 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:54am
surah 4:157-158
 
"That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah' -- But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, But so it was made To appear to them, And those who differ Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge, But only conjecture to follow, For of a surety They killed him not -- Nay, Allah raised him up Unto HImself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise"
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Islamway

Why can't Christians get the fact that it's their religion that is an off shot of the religion of the prophets NOT Islam .. It's YOUR religion that is different and has different and foreign beliefs never taught by any prophet before.
Probably for the same reason that you can't wrap your head around the fact that your religion (and, coincidentally, all religions) may not be based on "fact" at all.
That would be because you are blinded, by the way...just in case you misinterpret or misconstrue what it is that i, in "fact", said.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'.
 
"be no more (upon earth)" surely you don't think the Hebrew translation there is suggesting that the human spirit of Messiah (anointed one) would be discarded or vaporized rather than returning to Yah who gave it?
 
His earthly term of life was ended, he did not die in the traditional sense of the word, with his body and spirit being separated until the day of resurrection.
 
[quote=Damo]
Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merely transcended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 
Yes, I'm glad you can recognize that distinction, in a very literal sense he was saved from death, despite the fact that he appeared to die just as any other man would die.
[/QUOTE=eldon]
 
 
But if i'm not mistaken, the islamic belief is that the cross bore not the body of Jesus at all but another took His place ?
 
 PS.. forgive my hashing of the posts.. i haven't got the hang of this quote set up yet.
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:22pm
Right, I believe there is a theory in Islam that it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified, although I do not think the Qu'ran actually says this.
 
And I'm still hoping for an answer to my original question...
 
Originally posted by StoryMing

I'm sorry if someone already answered this and I missed it somewhere, but this has never made sense to me either; if Jesus was never actually crucified, but only appeared to be, why would Allah allow his disciples, followers of a true prophet, to remain in deception? Every one of them went to their deaths proclaiming and believing in the resurrection, but there can have been no resurrection if he was never killed.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

So he did die. Unless you can explain what is intended by the term 'cut off and be no more'.
 
"be no more (upon earth)" surely you don't think the Hebrew translation there is suggesting that the human spirit of Messiah (anointed one) would be discarded or vaporized rather than returning to Yah who gave it?
 
His earthly term of life was ended, he did not die in the traditional sense of the word, with his body and spirit being separated until the day of resurrection.
 
Originally posted by Damo

Actually its interesting reading the above translation for Christ strictly speaking merely transcended. He freely gave up his life. Death did not call on him.
 
Yes, I'm glad you can recognize that distinction, in a very literal sense he was saved from death, despite the fact that he appeared to die just as any other man would die.
 
 
 Eldon... i merely mean, gave up His mortal life, just as we do in the Christian sense only in that, we do not choose the time of our passing Jesus did, which is what i meant by death did not call on Him. However i do believe he did die and that it happened on the cross as the Gospels make clear.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 9:17am
Originally posted by StoryMing

Right, I believe there is a theory in Islam that it was Judas Iscariot who was crucified, although I do not think the Qu'ran actually says this.
 
There are several theories among Muslims that I'm aware of:
 
1. one of his disciples willingly took the place of Jesus before crucifixion
2. Judas was made to look like Jesus and was crucified
3. Simon of Cyrene was somehow substituted for Jesus
4. Barabbas (son of the father) was substituted for Jesus
 
The New Testament implies that a more spiritual substitution took place
 
"our old man was crucified with, that the body of sin might be destroyed"
Romans 6:6
 
It is a Scriptural Christian teaching that the old sin nature of  believers died on the cross, which is certainly not was Jesus himself was, so there is the Christian sort of substitution which the Quran hints at.
 
The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter quotes Jesus in affirming a substitution also, though not  along the lines of those that Muslims believe exactly.
 
 
 
Originally posted by StoryMing

I'm sorry if someone already answered this and I missed it somewhere, but this has never made sense to me either; if Jesus was never actually crucified, but only appeared to be, why would Allah allow his disciples, followers of a true prophet, to remain in deception? Every one of them went to their deaths proclaiming and believing in the resurrection, but there can have been no resurrection if he was never killed.

Jesus submitted himself to Allah before the crucifixion event and to all appearances was crucified anyway, thus what appeared to happen was the Will of Allah and was true enough to die for.

It was only later that the disciples realized that Jesus was somehow saved from death as Hebrews 5:7 implies. Likewise the substitutionary ideas that Paul writes about were not revealed until well after Jesus had left the earth. (2Corinthians 5:21, Romans 6:6, Colossians 2:14, Ephesians 2:16,  Romans 8:3)
 
Though most Christians cling absolutely to Jesus' actual crucifixion and resurrection, they have enough information in the NT to see what the Quran implies by the brief mention of the crucifixion therein, even though they won't believe any of the Muslim theories listed above.
 
 
 
 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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