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InterReligious Dialogue
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Hey Janet,

The guy who refused to renounce Satan on his deathbed was Voltaire, but Bernard Shaw is said to have done it too.


Very good!

Originally posted by Janet Waters

I don't know what you are trying to say by this comment.  However, it has strong racial overtones.
......is that how you meant it?


Originally posted by yishmael

Well, early Mormonism was pretty vehemently racist, or at least anti-Black, so perhaps. Brigham Young was certainly a vicious racist. I don't know that Pratt was so much. It was also an allusion to the Nation of Islam which actually does exist in North America.


Are these the reasons you are posing to explain your lack of faith?  These are not reasons....but excuses--not to have faith.

During the 1840's America was Anti-Mormon and Anti-Black....it was divided against itself in a civil war concerning what should be considered the appropriate treatment of blacks.  Those who were converts to the Church....did not have slaves or believe in slavery of any culture.  Brigham Young was vehnamtly against the injustice welded against any people-- for they had suffered much and could sympathize with those who were also hated, hunted, and killed.  Whether it was White Masters against black slaves or Blacks against whites........Brigham had "0" tolerance for unjust treatment of any man or woman.


Originally posted by yishmael

I think the Modern Mormon tradition of re-writing our scriptures is a good thing, in that it has done away with most of the racial hatred our great-grandparents were steeped in.


Here we go again!!  Utah was far removed from the slave states.  This is an exaggerated and distorted perception...coming from a westerner.

Originally posted by yishmael

President Kimball is to thank for most of that. The NOI has also moderated itself in recent years and now has some non-Black members, or so they tell me, and my hat's off to them too.


recent non-black members????

Originally posted by yishmael

I'm not stretching and you're just continuing to rely upon personal slights rather than discussing the relevant issues. Calling me an anti-Mormon, simply because I don't agree with you on the issues, is a great example of why I choose not to actively practice all the tenets of Mormonism.


With or against.  One can't be in the middle...there is no middle.  Stop fooling yourself.


Originally posted by yishmael

It's an anti-intellectual and small minded tactic that Muslims don't seem to embrace. For example, I have seen all manner of arguments and debates by Muslims among themselves, but I have yet to see any Muslim accuse an intellectual opponent of apostasy simply because he disagreed. Why do you suppose Mormons (not just yourself) are inclined to rely on such fallacies so readily?


Yismael....with or against.  With or against.  With or against.  Call to have your name removed.

Originally posted by yishmael

If God exists, he's big enough to tolerate his children taking different points of view. Your style of debate reflects an image of the divine which seems incredibly weak and insecure. I'm sorry you see God this way.


Back and forth; no foundation just sand; unstable.  I have never disputed that God loves all his children unconditionally.  The point here is if those children love him.....and choose him...and do something about it.  Not sit on a fence and expect Him to take them as serious followers.  You are either with him or not.  Plain and simple.

Originally posted by yishmael

In any event, it's clear you don't want to discuss Mormonism's role in or compared to the Abrahamic structure, so I'll wish you a pleasant Sunday and let you have the last word if you'd like it.Regards,Yishmael


All you have given me is excuses and excuses of why you can't believe.  Stand up and quit being a victim.  Quit hiding behind words. 

As our fore-fathers sing from the dust:

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard? 
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins;
fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell--
All is well!  All is well!!


And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day!   All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow too;
With the Just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain;
Oh how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well!  All is well!!


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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 12:01pm
I just want to make a comment concerning the NOI [Nation of Islam]. As it exists today, led by Minister Louis Farrakhan, as far as I know, they don't allow white or any non-Black members, although admittedly they have departed from racial rhetoric in recent years, and concentrate on social and political issues.

I think there may be some mixup. The "apostle-messenger" Elijah Muhammad, leader of the NOI until his death in 1975, maintained a strictly anti-white agenda. In 1975, after his death, his son W Deen became the leader, and he restructured the organization along the lines of traditional Islam, with emphasis on the Qur'an and Sunnah, and abandoned the many odd teachings of his father [among those teachings was that Whites were created by a Black scientist named Yacub, that a man named Fard Muhammad was God-incarnate, etc..]

Min.Farrakhan broke away from WD Mohammed, and revived the old views. As I said earlier, in recent years Farrakhan himself has stayed off of racial ideology, although he still maintains positions that are themselves unsupported by Islam, such as Fard Muhammad being God incarnate.

Back to the original discussion, Abraham is seen by all of us as our patriarch. It is his way that we seek to follow. That is because of his emphasis on the fact that there is only one God. In the Quranic story, he tried to use logic to show his contemporaries that the idols they serve are worthless. He actually destroys all the idols in a place, except the biggest one. When the people ask him if he destroyed their gods, he says "ask the big one here'. They respond by saying the idol cannot speak. How then, says Abraham, do you worship that which cannot speak, or even help itself, something you yourselves have created?

Why is the emphasis on God's oneness so important? It is because it shows that unity exists in all creation. We have not been created by different Gods. The Qur'an says that the reason for diversity in color and language is to show God's power and magnificence, but also so that humans themselves can learn from each other, gain knowledge from each other [Li ta'aarafoo] [Q 49:12].

I hope these words have been helpful.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:15pm

I feel very sorry that Judaism, Christianity and Islam have such a hard time getting along with each other and often spend so much time fighting.

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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 10:26pm
Hi Brother Waheed,

Thanks very much for the correction. I didn't appreciate the difference between the current NOI, which seems to be a reconstruction, and the evolution of the original.

I read Haley's Autobiography of Malcom X in high school, and I have met and talked to "the bowties" a few times. I'll admit I was impressed with them. They seem very cordial, professional and friendly. They have some  ideas that seem strange to me (I bought a copy of Final Call once, and they had some references to alien spacecraft) but from their perspective I'm sure they'd feel the same about White Mormons from Southern Utah.

Elijah Muhammad's story has always struck me as similar to Joseph Smith's. I think both these men started out attempting to better the world. In some of the same ways they got similarly sidetracked. One of the things that's most impressive about Muhammad (saw) is the fact that (in both the secular history and the religious tradition) he did not allow himself to succumb to temptation in the way many others might.

Back to the original discussion, Abraham is seen by all of us as our patriarch. It is his way that we seek to follow. That is because of his emphasis on the fact that there is only one God. In the Quranic story, he tried to use logic to show his contemporaries that the idols they serve are worthless. He actually destroys all the idols in a place, except the biggest one. When the people ask him if he destroyed their gods, he says "ask the big one here'. They respond by saying the idol cannot speak. How then, says Abraham, do you worship that which cannot speak, or even help itself, something you yourselves have created?

Why is the emphasis on God's oneness so important? It is because it shows that unity exists in all creation. We have not been created by different Gods. The Qur'an says that the reason for diversity in color and language is to show God's power and magnificence, but also so that humans themselves can learn from each other, gain knowledge from each other [
Li ta'aarafoo] [Q 49:12].

It's interesting to note the reference to paganism. When I was studying the classics, I noticed that there were always shadows of a higher, hidden order behind Greco-Roman mythology. Plato and Aristotle were fans of the idea that behind the gods, there was God. And then there was Akhenaten.

In any event, this has been a very enlightening discussion. I've learned a lot.

Yishmael
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:54pm
We believe that all people at some point have received teachers from God, with the essential message that God is one. Some Muslims believe that Akhenaton was a prophet, one "not named" in the Qur'an.
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:09pm
There is more than one "tradition" that has been ascribed to Abraham.  However over time, all the people of the earth will be blessed by the Abrahamic Covenant that God made with Abraham, wither that covenant will be restored through Abraham's literal seed and/or through adoption to it.  I call that good news!!  The tradition that God made with Abraham will be revealed to all....thus all will be blessed with this.






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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 1:01pm
Perhaps if we all begin to see ourselves as followers of Abraham, a meaningful foundation for dialogue can be built. After seeing that, then we can talk about our other differences in an intelligent matter and come to conclusions, as Abraham himself did [at least in the Quranic narrative anyways].

The Qur'an also says that any of us who rejects the way of Abraham is foolish. So, he is given as such an important figure that we must go back to his legacy for investigation and strength.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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