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deep thought  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote deep thought Replybullet Topic: Iraq
    Posted: 07 April 2008 at 7:21pm
"Since current events is now back, why don't we open a thread on the Iraq war there, take off the kid gloves, and discuss it with no holds barred?"- Hamyoun
 
 
Well, I am willing to discuss Iraq with anyone with a open mind. I am currently in Baghdad...  I talk to locals everyday... Both Sunni and Shia. I have a pretty good idea of the thoughts and dreams of the Iraqi people.. I will share what I have learned from IRAQI'S...

I would like to start out by saying that I didnt agree with the invasion of Iraq by the REASONS GIVEN. We all know there was no WMD and that he had no ties to Al Qaeda. But, if the sole reason for invading Iraq was to remove a evil dictator who KILLED MANY SHIA MEN, KILLED KURDS, and who sons(UDAY) raped little girls and totured athletes, and who threatened to cause havoc in an oil rich region of the world(the guy did invade Kuwait), then I would have been all for it because those reasons are valid and documented as FACT. But, he reasons for invading were BS..

Now, about 2 weeks ago I was held up south of Baghdad in a area mostly sunni.. I talked to 5 guys... 3 sunni and 2 shia. They said that they  dont have a problem with America taking out Saddam cause he was bad for the people of Iraq... I asked them if we should pull out.. They said no that since we invaded we need to make sure they can govern themselves.. we broke it therefore we should fix it.. The 3 sunni guys basically said that they only problem they have with us is that we backed a shia government..
 
Here are the facts as of now.
1. SUNNI AND SHIA ARE KILLING EACH OTHER.
2. We are no more than referees in a CIVIL WAR FOR POWER.
 
Thats the bottom line... I talked to a Capatain and he told me that when he goes into the sunni neighborhoods they openly tell him that when we leave that they will start to attack the shia's... They dont hide this.. He was so suprised that they were so open about it..Folks this is the reality.. We got rid of a dictator... now the once opressed shia have the power and the once dominant sunni minority are feeling the retaliation..
 
Saddam killed many muslim women and children.... He didnt belong in power.. He was a brutal..
 
thats my cents

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 8:27pm
Assalamu `alaikum brother.

It's good to hear from you again.

I was against the invasion, and always have. I suppose I may have been more sympathetic towards it if the aim had been to get depose Saddam Hussain solely for him being a cruel dictator, but there was always going to be more to it than that. Even if they did decide to drop the WMD and Al-Qa'ida cards, there are still many testing questions. Why Saddam? Afterall, he wasn't a uniquely evil man, there are plenty of dictators in the world who done things just as bad as him yet the US doesn't attack them (in fact many of them it supports). Why now? I think the strongest case the US had for deposing Saddam on his own merits was 1991, at which point it could very legitimately be argued that he was a threat to the stability of the Middle-east as well as his own people, and should be removed. But in 2003 this just wasn't the case anymore, Iraq's army had been crippled by the Gulf War and subsequent sanctions, and was in no situation to start threatening neighbouring countries even if Saddam intended to; which is doubtable seeing how the Gulf War seemed to teach him a lesson, that if he started causing trouble like that again, the US wuold not hesitate to intervene, and this time would probably go all the way to Baghdad. Even if he was a threat to his own people (I'm not disputing this at all), the fact is he wasn't a threat anymore. He was a nuisance, but not a threat.

I would also argue that the threat Saddam posed to his people, while present, has been exaggerated by the war's supporters. Yes it's perfectly true that Saddam killed tens of thousands of his own people, but this was mainly during 1980s. Although the regime was still repressive and totalitarian, people simply weren't being frequently massacred on a large scale in 2003. The amount of Iraqi civilians killed during the initial invasion (about 7,000-8,000, that's x2.5 the 9/11 dead) was far, far more than the amount of people being killed by Saddam himself, and that's before we even get into the real war itself. A dictator killing his own people is not sufficient justification for his removal, if you claim to be acting in the interests of the Iraqi people then your mandate is lost the moment you start killing multitudes more Iraqis than Saddam himself was.

So in principle I would have liked to see Saddam Hussain removed, but I would not support the US doing so, as I had (and, I believe understandably, still have) no confidence that they were capable of doing so without making a total mess of the situation. The fact is the primary focus was not Saddam's human rights record, but the claims that he had amassed stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction which could be used against Western targets, and that he had operational links with Al-Qa'ida, claims that even supporters of the war now accept were completely false, and what's more the evidence for these these claims was totally bogus in the first place. If the people who took your country (hey, and mine) into this war have such a mindset, how can we trust them to have a clue what they're doing in rebuilding a country? It's clear to me that the neocons in the Bush administration (though I don't think Bush himself is the most guilty amongst them) see themselves as the guiding lights of the 'free world' leading America into war against the forces of 'evil', put bluntly they're not in touch with reality. Their mission was to defeat the evil Saddam Hussain and job done, and then all they needed to do was sit back and watch the Iraqi people rebuild their country overnight into a 'free' pro-American democracy in the heart of the Middle-east, winning the hearts and minds of the Muslim world. Sorry, but anyone who seriously thought (and there are many who did) that's what would happen is either crazy or just shockingly ignorant, and dangerously ignorant when you're running the most powerful country in the world.

That being said, I don't support the US pulling out of Iraq, and I feel that arguments of whether or not they should have invaded to be misplaced in such a discussion, as the reality is it's been done and that can't be changed. Unfortunately for you guys (I mean, the soldiers) who are stuck there now, the US has an obligation to stay there until it has helped fix all the problems which (whether it admits it or not) is responsible for. If they  decide they're going to invade Iraq promising freedom, democracy, prosperity and a new life of its people and then leave the country in a wartorn mess, than they'll never be trusted again, and (not that I support such action in any way at all) you could very well find the war following you back.

The people (apart from the Iraqis, obviously) who've really been screwed over by this are the American soldiers themselves, and honestly I really do feel for you guys sometimes, knowing that you could be killed tomorrow for a war you were against in the first place. That must really get you down.
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2008 at 10:13pm
I thought it was all about oil.
 
Hmm.. me and my simplistic views.
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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deep thought  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote deep thought Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:16am
 "Even if they did decide to drop the WMD and Al-Qa'ida cards, there are still many testing questions. Why Saddam? Afterall, he wasn't a uniquely evil man, there are plenty of dictators in the world who done things just as bad as him yet the US doesn't attack them "
 
Kad, this is very interesting question u raised and I think I have a suitable answer... Sure, There are many dictators in the world that should be ousted... SUDAN comes to mind. But, where is the incentive? Iraq is a strategic gold mine... Other countries offer no gain.. thats the bottom line...
 
"The amount of Iraqi civilians killed during the initial invasion (about 7,000-8,000, that's x2.5 the 9/11 dead) was far, far more than the amount of people being killed by Saddam himself, and that's before we even get into the real war itself. A dictator killing his own people is not sufficient justification for his removal, if you claim to be acting in the interests of the Iraqi people then your mandate is lost the moment you start killing multitudes more Iraqis than Saddam himself was."
 
Hmmm, I get what u are saying but its very impractical.. This is war Kad.. You make it seem as if we purposely target civilians(yeah,I know there have been cases  of "rogue" soldiers dont vicious things to civilians).. But, for the most part in war civilians die.. It comes with a price. Thats the harsh reality. We are not in the business of purposely killing civilians contrary to what some may think.. Hell, study the Iraq-Iran war.. We are SAINTS compared to those guys. We actually have rules and guidelines... What do u call a guy who uses women and children as shields? THIS IS THE REALITY..

U made great points though.

 


 
 
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deep thought  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote deep thought Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Traveller

I thought it was all about oil.
 
Hmm.. me and my simplistic views.
 
 
 
 
Yeah, have u seen how much oil cost in the States? lol
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boink  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote boink Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:17pm

so will you vote for?

a democrat = pull out of iraq
a republican = surge of soldier
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:25pm
Hmmm, I get what u are saying but its very impractical.. This is war Kad.. You make it seem as if we purposely target civilians(yeah,I know there have been cases  of "rogue" soldiers dont vicious things to civilians).. But, for the most part in war civilians die.. It comes with a price.

Two things.

1. This war was supposed to be about saving people's lives from a tyrant.  Maybe I'm just naive, but I can't see the logic of killing people in order to save them.

2. It seems to have been pretty well established that this war was not necessary.  That being said, the 'this is war' argument falls flat on its face.

Now again, maybe I'm being naive because I'm not a soldier, but I see killing - anyone, civilian or soldier - as an absolute last resort.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2008 at 1:26pm
But, for the most part in war civilians die.. It comes with a price.

Oh, forgot to add, the people paying the price aren't the ones who asked for the war.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

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Islamway  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Islamway Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 8:08am

- The war in Iraq is unjustified for the reasons given or any other reason .. Assuming America went to Iraq to free and save the Iraqis, the invasion is still unjustified .. there are plenty of countries that are much more worth of being freed, but unfortunately they don't have oil.

- America never cared about Iraqi people (or any other nation in fact), actually the American foreign policy has resulted in the oppression and death of millions of Iraqis both before and after the war ..
 
- The invasion of Iraq caused nothing but destruction, division and isolation of Iraq. You don't need to visit Iraq to know this fact. I see although you are living in Baghdad, you are not so aware of the situation there. Your argument is so naive and shallow .. Plus you see that Sunnis are the guilty side while Shi'a are the always-victims.
 
- Finally, If America really wants to do anything good for Muslims, or wants to stop terrorism .. All what she needs to do is to stop backing Israel .. apparently this is the primary source of all problems.


Edited by Islamway - 09 April 2008 at 8:29am
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deep thought  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote deep thought Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 9:49am

1. This war was supposed to be about saving people's lives from a tyrant.  Maybe I'm just naive, but I can't see the logic of killing people in order to save them

Hamayoun, the truth of the matter is that in war... innocent people die.. U can try your best(which we do contrary to what u may believe) to minimize civilian casualties but it happens.. Study the history of war and u will see the even the most "just" wars have killed civilians..

2. It seems to have been pretty well established that this war was not necessary.  That being said, the 'this is war' argument falls flat on its face.
 
 Hmmm, I disagree.... The REASONS GIVEN for the war made it not necessasry.. If the sole reason given was to remove  Saddam from power then yes, it would have been a just and necessary war.
Now again, maybe I'm being naive because I'm not a soldier, but I see killing - anyone, civilian or soldier - as an absolute last resort."
 
I agree... it should be a last resort. Politicians should exhaust every diplomatic solution to our world problems.

- The war in Iraq is unjustified for the reasons given or any other reason .. Assuming America went to Iraq to free and save the Iraqis, the invasion is still unjustified .. there are plenty of countries that are much more worth of being freed, but unfortunately they don't have oil.

Umm, no..  I disagre big time..Saddam for the sake of the people needed to be removed.. No one was even allowed to say anything against him. There was a story of a man who told someone that he had  a dream that he would one day be President of Iraq. Word got back to Saddam and he was sentenced to SEVEN YEARS IN PRISON. I was told this story by a Iraqi friend of mine named Ahmad.. Yes, maybe there was incentive for choosing Iraq but it doesnt diminish the fact that he was a bad guy...

 

- The invasion of Iraq caused nothing but destruction, division and isolation of Iraq. You don't need to visit Iraq to know this fact. I see although you are living in Baghdad, you are not so aware of the situation there. Your argument is so naive and shallow .. Plus you see that Sunnis are the guilty side while Shi'a are the always-victims.

Yes, the invasion caused destruction(what war doesn't?) Division already existed... Saddam just did a good job of keeping order(by kiling people) You know Saddam was almost killed by Shias? Uday was shot in his car by shias... The division always existed buddy. I never said that sunni's were never victims.. Its that the Shia(the majority in Iraq) were more opressed by Saddam for various reasons.. Me not being aware,lol.. I talk to countless Iraqi's... How many have u talked to today? They tell me all the time that it is good that Saddam was removed for the people. Sunni and Shia alike! You cant speak for them.. I only share with u what I hear from their tongues.. not my own... As we speak there is a power struggle... U are letting ur emotions get u away from REALITY..
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 10:10am
Originally posted by deep thought


Yes, maybe there was incentive for choosing Iraq but it doesnt diminish the fact that he was a bad guy...

 



Who is going to liberate us from our bad guy?
www.hudastore.com

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bayleaf  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bayleaf Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2008 at 10:33am
Originally posted by jamilahz

Who is going to liberate us from our bad guy?
 
Obamarama.
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peacefighter  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote peacefighter Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2008 at 11:15am

few questions for you before we talk about what you posted.

 
When was it decided that iraq should be attacked?
Who was the  first person used iraq name for invasion.
And when a country go to a war who does the one in power ask for its financial standing. means for how long they can afford to stay in the war.
 
These are the question I would like you to answer. I have the answer for all of them if you are not sure please ask me.
 
But one thing is very obvious you guys are brain washed.
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