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Message Icon Topic: AMAZING Quran, how could you disbelieve?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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mohamedz1987  
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Iznogoodh

Originally posted by mohamedz1987

wahlers said: That is: Can you honestly say that you can flawlessly read the ancient allegoric Arabic as is used in the Koran! I bet not!!!

I can. The Arabic word used in that verse is transliterated to be "FALAK"

The best translation for it is "orbit" as Pichthal translated it to be. So the verse, according to Pichthal's tranlstion, is as follows:

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

The transliteration is as follows:

Wa Huwa Alladhee Khalaqa Allail Wa Annahaar Wa Ashhams Wa Alqamar Kullun Fee Falakin Yasbahoon

Clearly they float in an orbit. Around the earth. That is what they thought in those dark times. So they wrote it down in the Quran.

Iznogoodh



So are you saying that the sun does not move at all?
There is nothing in the verse that says they both move around the Earth.

I guess I'll post a few websites that prove that the sun orbits something (the Milky Way, in case you did not know).

http://www.chron.com/content/interactive/space/astronomy/n ews/1999/ds/990602.html
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/StacyLeong.shtml
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=461

The last one has a quote I will post rhere:

"Technically, what is going on is that the Earth, Sun and all the planets are orbiting around the center of mass of the solar system."

http://www.sunorbit.net/

Here is a quote from the website shown above:

The Sun moves by the combined forces of all outer planets

Quite suprising to know that you did not know that the sun orbits the galaxy. I believe that this is relatively elementary knowledge in our time.
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wahlers
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 11:39am

To: Mohamedz1987

I might be mistaken, and no doubt Iznogoodh will answer for himself, but as far as I understand Iznogoodh only pointed out the geocentric system as favored by the Greek science at that time. In this respect the sun does move! But it moves in a perfect circle around the earth. However the earth is stationary and central within the the music (layers) of spheres (the universe) as thought of by the ancient Greek.

 

Regards, Wim Ahlers.

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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 2:04pm

 

Wahlers, what I meant at first is that the Quran says the celestial bodies move in orbit.  Your arguement was basically, no, the celestial bodies move in orbit.  You are unwilling to accept the fact that the Quran says something that science today says, just in different wording.

You are stuck on the earth, sun and moon thing.... do you not have any comments on other scientific marvels in the Quran from the link?  I'm not gonna agree with you on this, you're not gonna agree with me.... it's getting old.  Dispute something else, like how flowers are in pairs, or how babies are formed.



Edited by Rachel25
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 2:16pm

To: Rachel25

Here is another universal goody...

The Koran:

[41:12] Then He completed seven heavens in two Days and He made in each heaven its affair. And We adorned the nearest (lowest) heaven with lamps (stars) to be an adornment as well as to guard (from the devils by using them as missiles against the devils). Such is the Decree of Him the All-Mighty, the All-Knower.

(source: excerpt from: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam .html. Note: This web link proofs that the 'amazing scientific claim' is dubious, to say the least!)

Ptolemy:

The four elements of earth, water, air, and fire all had their own proper spheres (1,2,3,4) concentric to the earth, followed by the sphere of the Moon (5). This marked the boundary between the "sublunary" world, in which things came into being, changed, and died, and the "superlunary" realm, in which things were eternal. Beyond lay the planets, or "wandering stars," which moved around the earth in perfect spheres (6). The sphere of the fixed stars contained all of these, with nothing beyond it except God (7).

(source: excerpt from: http://microcosmos.uchicago.edu/ptolemy/astronomy.html)

Conclusion:

Isn't it amazing! According to the Koran there are 7 heavens and according to the Almagest from Ptolemy there are 7 spiritual harmonic spheres! On top of that, at the time and place of Mohammad the Almagest was widely known and widely used (if nothing else for mere practical use! It was a good approximation to predict the position of the wandering start [the planets!] and therefore usable for navigation and seasons).

Note: the source http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/islam .html reasons that the 7 heavens represent the 7 known celestial bodies at the time (sun, moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn). Then again, Pythagoras did associate the 'harmony of spheres with the planets, see: http://www.panplanet.com/articles/davidplant.htm. However, from what I know (and listed!) from Ptolemy this was not the issue. But this fact was, indeed, used by Kepler in an attempt to explain the movements of the planets (see: http://www.goldenmuseum.com/0606spheras_engl.html. Note: the golden mean is also mentioned in this web link, but that is another story!)

 

Regards, Wim Ahlers.



Edited by wahlers
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 2:23pm

Like I said, You are stuck on the earth, sun and moon thing.... do you not have any comments on other scientific marvels in the Quran from the link?  I'm not gonna agree with you on this, you're not gonna agree with me.... it's getting old.  Dispute something else, like how flowers are in pairs, or how babies are formed.

 

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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 2:47pm

To: Rachel25

You said:

Wahlers, what I meant at first is that the Quran says the celestial bodies move in orbit.  Your arguement was basically, no, the celestial bodies move in orbit.  You are unwilling to accept the fact that the Quran says something that science today says, just in different wording.

You are stuck on the earth, sun and moon thing.... do you not have any comments on other scientific marvels in the Quran from the link?  I'm not gonna agree with you on this, you're not gonna agree with me.... it's getting old.  Dispute something else, like how flowers are in pairs, or how babies are formed

My answer:

There is nothing 'amazing' about the 'scientific fact' that cows produce milk. The 'orbit' of the planets are known for at least 2,500 years (that I know of). Thus this 'amazing scientific fact' falls in the same category as 'the amazing scientific fact' that cows produce milk. In other words: common knowledge (and, in the case of the celestial bodies, also scientifically incorrect)! Nothing, mysterious, miraculous or amazing about it! In case of the Koranic description it is based on the geocentric system as postulated by Pythagoras and formerly described by Ptolemy (as you can read I my previous reply).

You also accuse me of not discussing 'something else' (remember I mentioned the evasive tactic! You are using this now!). However, I in fact did discuss one other 'amazing scientific fact'! It is in my reply time dated: 09 March 2005 at 5:22am! If you bother to read the reply and the mentioned link you will notice that the flimsy claim of the 'amazing scientific fact' on embryology is neatly, completely and thoroughly debunked!

I am still awaiting an example where you show that I am 'grasping for straws' and are using 'irrelevant reasoning'. Are you evasive again? I will repeat my question.

That is, I repeat by asking (and I quote one of my previous replies):

Then I tell you that you can not just accuse...you must support your accusation with actual proof and references.

Your turn again!!!

 

Regards, Wim Ahlers.

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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 3:13pm

Okay, I read some of your link about embryology.....

"And finally the fullest treatment is in the Sura of The Believers (Al-Mu'minun) 23:12-14, which reads:

"Verily We created man from a product of wet earth, then placed him as a drop of seed in a safe lodging, then We fashioned the drop a clot (‘alaqa), and of the clot (‘alaqa) We fashioned a lump, and of the lump We fashioned bones, and We clothed the bones (with) meat. Then We produced it as another creation."

These stages can be summarized as follows:


   

QURANIC STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT

STAGE 1. nutfa -- sperm

STAGE 2. ‘alaqa -- clot

STAGE 3. mudagha -- piece or lump of flesh

STAGE 4. ‘adaam -- bones

STAGE 5. dressing the bones with muscles

   

Over the last 100 plus years this word ‘alaqa has been translated as follows:

  • French, un grumeau de sang (a small lump of blood) - Kasimirski, 1948 (last Ed. during life of author was 1887)[11]
  • a leech-like clot - Yusuf Ali, (translation of 1938) 1946[12]
  • a clot - Pickthall, (translation of 1940) 1977[13]
  • a clot - Maulana Muhammad Ali, 1951[14]
  • a clot - Muhammad Zafrulla Khan, 1971[15]
  • French, de caillot de sang (clot of blood) - Hamidullah, 1981[16]
  • French, un caillot de sang - Masson, 1967
  • a clot of blood - N. J. Dawood, 1980[17] Approved by the Supreme Sunni and Shii Councils of the Republic of Lebanon
  • Indonesian, segumpal darah (lump of or clot of blood) - Indonesian Department of Religious Affairs, 1984
  • Farsi, khoon basteh (a clot of blood) - Mehdi Elahi Ghomshehi
  • Chinese, xue kuai (blood clot)
  • Malay, darah beku (blood clot)

    [NOTE to translators: Feel free to delete or add other language words for clot (‘alaqa)
    if there are Qur'ans in those languages which seem more important to you.]

As every reader who has studied human reproduction will realize, there is no stage as a clot during the formation of a fetus so this is a very major scientific problem."

So basically, it is another 'translation' problem.  This, again, is why Muslims should learn Arabic.  A baby isn't a BLOOD clot, but before the flesh, a baby is a bunch of dividing cells which looks like what..... a clot maybe?  Then, what is in your link is a lot of detail.  The Quran goes into SOME detail, but if Allah wanted everything about how babies are formed, how the planets are in orbit, how the rain cycles work, He would have sent specific books about each.  We have the Quran which gives us basic knowledge of some things, and some detail.  We also have minds to learn, and education is a big part of Islam, too.

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wahlers
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 3:23pm

To: Rachel25

Read more closely...and if you do then you notice that all translations are considered and even all interpretations of all translations are considered. Then notice that none of the permutations is in accordance with the scientific facts. However, almost all permutations are in accordance with Galen's embryology theory. This theory pre-dates Islam and was commonly accepted medical knowledge at the time and place of Mohammad.

Thus, concluding, none of the Koranic verses are in line with modern science (regardless used translation and used interpretation) and (almost) all is in accordance with the medical knowledge at the time and place of Mohammad. There goes another 'amazing scientific miracle'!

Now tell me:  where do you show that I am 'grasping for straws' and are using 'irrelevant reasoning'.

I repeat by asking (and I quote one of my previous replies):

Then I tell you that you can not just accuse...you must support your accusation with actual proof and references.

Your turn again!!!

 

Regards, Wim Ahlers.

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Iznogoodh
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by mohamedz1987

Originally posted by Iznogoodh

Originally posted by mohamedz1987

wahlers said: That is: Can you honestly say that you can flawlessly read the ancient allegoric Arabic as is used in the Koran! I bet not!!!

I can. The Arabic word used in that verse is transliterated to be "FALAK"

The best translation for it is "orbit" as Pichthal translated it to be. So the verse, according to Pichthal's tranlstion, is as follows:

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

The transliteration is as follows:

Wa Huwa Alladhee Khalaqa Allail Wa Annahaar Wa Ashhams Wa Alqamar Kullun Fee Falakin Yasbahoon

Clearly they float in an orbit. Around the earth. That is what they thought in those dark times. So they wrote it down in the Quran.

Iznogoodh



So are you saying that the sun does not move at all?

No, my dear lad, I am not saying that. I am saying that people in that time generally thought that the sun was rotating around the earth and so that if people were talking about the movement of the sun, they would mean the apparent movement along the sky between sunrise and sunset.
It is only much, much later that people learned that it is the rotation of the earth that largely accounts for this apparent movement.

There is nothing in the verse that says they both move around the Earth.

Neither is there anything that suggests that something else was meant than a movement of the sun around the earth. This idea is strengthened by the fact that the Quran doesn't mention the rotation of the earth and its connection with day and night, nor does the Quran mention the orbit of the earth around the sun and its connection with the seasons.
So what good reason would you have to prove that the movement of the sun about which the Quran talks has to mean something else? The fact that we know today that the sun moves around the Milky Way doesn't count as proof of course, considering the fact that the Quran was written 1400 years ago.


Iznogoodh



Edited by Iznogoodh
Our Father...
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Stay there...
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2005 at 6:17pm

Wahlers, I wish I had the time to do more research, post links, post specific Suras.  But arguing with someone with a closed mind is useless.  I have a family, I have small kids.  And the more time I spend going back and forth with you, the less time I spend with them.

I came to this site to have some questions answered, not to argue with someone about which religion, which book, who's prophet we follow. 

No one, not even you, will change my views on my religion.  I see many miracles in the Quran, I am renewed every day, every prayer.  If you don't see it, if YOU don't believe what I believe, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.  I know that the thing that I do in this life matter, and determine where I will be in the hereafter.

When I see someone who has real questions, I'd love to do what I can to help.  Find books, links, whatever I could to help.  But arguing with someone who loves to argue just for the sake of arguing, it's just not the best way to spend my time.

 

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bullet Posted: 10 March 2005 at 10:38am

To: rachel25

Why do you assume that I want to change you to follow another religion or no religion? That is absolutely not the case! Look closer...I never answer religious questions! I only react when it is claimed that there are (1) scientific facts in the Koran. I also react when it is claimed that the (2) evolution theory is false. And I do react on all issues related to the UN declaration of (3) human rights.

Occasionally I react on what I consider a colored view on history. But I have never discussed any Christian Bible text or Koranic text on religious issues.

However, I hereby repeat my original post and conclude that we finally arrived at point 5! To remind you here is the copied contents of my predictive post:

To: Rachel25

You said:

Actually, when his arguments are opposed in an honest, intellectual way, he starts grasping for straws, saying things about the sexual revolution and other irrelevant reasoning. 

My answer:

I love this  an accusation! I can only laugh about this because I can always predict what is going to happen afterwards! It goes like this...just follow the simple procedure as described below:

  1. I start by saying and requesting: Please show where 'I was grasping for straws' and show me what, where and why 'I used other irrelevant reasoning' (I will ignore your remark about the sexual revolution, because I never used the term 'sexual revolution'. I did, however, discuss about different human relationships among them gay people and unmarried people. I assume you are referring to this).
  2. Now you try to answer! It is too much trouble to find it back, therefore you answer with another evasive answer without actually referring to the source where all this happened.
  3. Then I tell you that you can not just accuse...you must support your accusation with actual proof and references.
  4. (step 2 and 3 may be repeated several times!!!)
  5. Eventually either of the following will happen: a) You ignore me without ever substantiating the accusation or b) you will call me a hateful, ignorant, bastard that does not have the necessary skills to answer, discuss or criticize anything about Islam or the Islamic viewpoints.

Your turn  !!!

(Source: http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2239&PN=0& amp; amp;TPN=2 (06 March 2005 at 12:54pm)

So, let's summarize! Nowhere could you honestly substantiate your claim that I was 'grasping for straws' and used 'irrelevant reasoning' by using proof or references. Yes! You did say it at least once more...but without substantiative arguments! It is not enough that you just feel this way...you must actually proof and substantiate these accusations. You were unable to do so!

So, finally - after the predictive evasive tactics - you call me, and I quote: "someone with a closed mind" and "someone who loves to argue just for the sake of arguing". Well, this is as close as it can be by saying, and now I quote myself: "you will call me a hateful, ignorant, bastard that does not have the necessary skills to answer, discuss or criticize anything about Islam or the Islamic viewpoints".

However, if you disagree then please list either your replies or my posts using solid argumentation where it shows that I am "grasping for straws" and "use illogical reasoning".

Note: When listing your own replies then please don't forget to mention my rebuttal as well. Because I do claim that all my rebuttals have valid, solid and logical arguments (*)!

(*) You may not like these arguments...but that is another issue!

 

Regards, Wim ahlers.



Edited by wahlers
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mohamedz1987  
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bullet Posted: 10 March 2005 at 11:47am
It is of the wise for both sides to find new and more facts.

I have a book by James Burke (a non-Muslim..obviously) titled "The Day The Universe Changed"

In it, he states:

"Somebody once observed to the eminent philosopher Wittgenstein how stupid midieval Europeans living before the time of Copernicus must have been that they could have looked at the sky and thought the sun was circling around the earth...'I agree. But I wonder what it would look like if the sun had been circling the earth.'
The point is that it would look exactly the same. When we observe nature, we see what we want to see, according to what we believe we know at the time..."

Given the preceding quote, and given the fact that the Qur'an did not state that the sun revolved around the earth, the Qur'an still holds true with science.

Question:
Why didn't the Qur'an state that the sun revolved around the earth, if that is (according to wahlers's and Iznogoodh's perspective) what it meant?

Answer:
The Qur'an is God's words, and He Wisefully used the right words, so that it would remain true throughout all time, whether at that time it is said that the earth revolved around the sun, or the sun revolved around the earth.

Question:
Why didn't the Qur'an state that the earth revolved around the sun?

Answer:
Because such a statement during those times would be considered the words of a man gone crazy (Arabic-"majnoon", as many pagan Arabs called Muhammad).



Edited by mohamedz1987
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wahlers
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bullet Posted: 10 March 2005 at 12:02pm
...but this is what we call interpreting a text to fit reality! You can do that with just about any text! And, concluding, if you can do this with just about any text - to mean just about anything - then it is, scientifically speaking, meaningless. So, to you, it might be amazing but by no means or measure is it scientific.
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hamayoun  
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bullet Posted: 10 March 2005 at 12:23pm

AA


Rachel25 said:


Wahlers, I wish I had the time to do more research, post links, post specific Suras.  But arguing with someone with a closed mind is useless.  I have a family, I have small kids.  And the more time I spend going back and forth with you, the less time I spend with them.

I came to this site to have some questions answered, not to argue with someone about which religion, which book, who's prophet we follow. 

No one, not even you, will change my views on my religion.  I see many miracles in the Quran, I am renewed every day, every prayer.  If you don't see it, if YOU don't believe what I believe, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.  I know that the thing that I do in this life matter, and determine where I will be in the hereafter.

When I see someone who has real questions, I'd love to do what I can to help.  Find books, links, whatever I could to help.  But arguing with someone who loves to argue just for the sake of arguing, it's just not the best way to spend my time.

Each of us muslims on this board eventually comes to this conclusion with Wahlers.  That's why I cautioned you about him when you started this thread.

So Rachel25, join the ranks of those of us who've decided that we have better things to do in our lives than arguing with Wahlers.


May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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