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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 11:47am

Originally posted by Westwind

I hold to the Trinitarian belief of three beings equal in essence, each being a unique person, existing in a hierarchy of authority, always in agreement with God the Father, the highest in authority.

I don't see anything in the Athanasian Creed about a heirarchy of authority:

 

Athanasian Creed


1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

42. and shall give account of their own works.

43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

So how does it feel to be counted among the damned, according to those who uphold the AC?
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Faris al-Farik  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Faris al-Farik Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Westwind

Bart Ehrman is not a Christian any more, nor is his work beyond criticism.  He is an agnostic.  It is interesting to note that while he doesn't attend church anymore, his Ph.D. wife still does.

If you want to read up on him, go ahead. Just know there are far more Biblical scholars with impeccable credentials, that disagree with Ehrman.

Such as this response to Misquoting Jesus by Thomas Howe, Ph.D, Professor of Biblical Languages, and the Director of the Apologetics Program at Southern Evangelical Seminary.  Interestingly, some of Dr. Howe's criticisms of Ehrman are applicable against Muslim arguments against the Bible. 

There is also the Reverend Mark D. Roberts who writes another critique of Ehrman's work. 
The Bible, the Qur'an, Bart Ehrman, and the Words of God

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman#Personal_life
 
 
Ahh, Westwind:
 
You, my friend, are not ready to examine and study the origins and the corruptions of your creed, which led to Christianity.
 
I asked you to look into Bart D. Ehrman, and you dismissed out of hand, by claiming that he "is not a Christian anymore." Ah, Westwind, does that make the analysis of Ehrman any less valid? Hmm?
 
As I said in my last post: if you are insecure in your own faith, then so be it! However, please quit dancing around the points that attach Paul to his version of "Pauline" Christianity. It is noteworthy that you will accept the creedal authority of your Protestantism (which derived the Trinity from the Roman Catholic Church) without much scrutiny, but you will dismiss Ehrman's research as coming from an "agnostic" source. Hmm?
 
Your thesis reminds me of those that blindly hate Islam while blindly clinging to Christianity, without much thought into either one of those premises.
 
As I said before, it is okay with me, as a Muslim, that you cling to your version of the Pauline-doctrines of modern-day Protestantism. My faith teaches me that man's freewill is supreme, and that there is no compulsion in religion.
 
So, I will call off this discussion with you, as you are not intellectually prepared to engage in rigorous scrutiny of the origins of the New Testament.
 
I wish you well!
 
Faris al-Farik
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Westwind Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Faris al-Farik

 
Ahh, Westwind:
 
You, my friend, are not ready to examine and study the origins and the corruptions of your creed, which led to Christianity.
 
I asked you to look into Bart D. Ehrman, and you dismissed out of hand, by claiming that he "is not a Christian anymore." Ah, Westwind, does that make the analysis of Ehrman any less valid? Hmm?
 
As I said in my last post: if you are insecure in your own faith, then so be it! However, please quit dancing around the points that attach Paul to his version of "Pauline" Christianity. It is noteworthy that you will accept the creedal authority of your Protestantism (which derived the Trinity from the Roman Catholic Church) without much scrutiny, but you will dismiss Ehrman's research as coming from an "agnostic" source. Hmm?
 
Your thesis reminds me of those that blindly hate Islam while blindly clinging to Christianity, without much thought into either one of those premises.
 
As I said before, it is okay with me, as a Muslim, that you cling to your version of the Pauline-doctrines of modern-day Protestantism. My faith teaches me that man's freewill is supreme, and that there is no compulsion in religion.
 
So, I will call off this discussion with you, as you are not intellectually prepared to engage in rigorous scrutiny of the origins of the New Testament.
 
I wish you well!
 
Faris al-Farik
 
 


Faris, I did not dismiss Ehrman out of hand. I have read Ehrman's arguments, and I've read the counter-arguments as well.  The counter-arguments are correct.  As for the 'origins and corruptions of my creed', where is your evidence?  I've been waiting for years for solid, incontrovertible evidence from Muslims.  The best Muslims have provided are a few very explainable typographical errors, and a lot of groundless speculation.  I will counter with this: Muslims could not accept any evidence, because they must not contradict Islam with the facts.  If any one fact contradicts the Quran, your whole religion falls, because the Quran must be perfect in every way. You can not even entertain the possibility that the Quran is wrong!  Is this not correct?

You called him a Christian.  He is not a Christian by his own admission.  If he is creating heresy and deception through his poor scholarship, which is not widely accepted except by anti-Christians, that should be a warning flag to all who read his books.  If I quoted Robert Spencer, a well known anti-Islam writer, how much credence would you give him and his books?

I do thank you for allowing me my freewill to choose what to believe, but you are making a serious error if you think I'm "blindly clinging to Christianity".  I have read the Bible, and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. I have studied the scriptures, and their contexts.  I have researched the history of Christianity, the Bible, and its criticisms.  I fellowship with God in prayer, because of what Jesus has done, and it is through growth in this relationship, that I know of the certainty of the Gospel.  The Holy Spirit guides me, in accordance with the scriptures.  There are people who blindly follow religions Faris, but I am not one of them.

What I dislike about Islam, is that it attempts to tell me what I believe, as if it can read my mind.  It can't, and it does not know what I believe.  I dislike that Muslims know so little about Christianity, but assume so much without actually understanding what it is that Christians believe.  How can Muslims who get their Christian theology from Muslim and anti-Christian sources, expect to understand us?  The attacks on Paul are the perfect example.  Muslims just assume that Christians found Paul's writings, and accepted them uncritically.  A prime example is Eldons post above, in which he assumes that everything to be known about the trinitarian relationship is in the Athanasian Creed.  The creed is a essentially a summary, not a comprehensive explanation of the Trinity.  Christianity is far more nuanced, sophisticated, and intellectual than Muslims seem to comprehend.

For example, if Christians kept telling you that Muslims worship the Kabaa,
and that Muslims should still pray facing Jerusalem, what would you think about their knowledge of Islam? 
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:23pm
Westwind

Bear in mind that Faris used to be a Christian.  He knows more about Christianity than a born muslim like myself.  That being said, Faris, I would like you to please enlighten at least my own mind by telling us about the 'origins and corruption' of Christianity.  And maybe tell us a little about Ehrman's arguments.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bayleaf Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:33pm

I'm also interested in Faris's appraisal of Ehrman's arguments, but more importantly his assessment of Ehrman's predecessor, Bruce Metzger - plus Metzger's contemporaries, Raymond Brown and Hans Kung.  Certainly we're not allowing Paul nor the NT to be judged by a handful of carefully selected quotes when an author's reputation rests not on how punctual his quotes can be but rather on how accurate his thesis remains.

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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:41pm
A lot of time it is assumed that Muslims no nothing about Christianity... I can't speak for Faris, but I was raised Christian and stayed Christian for 34 years... I knew about it when I was Christian and I know about it now that I have reverted to Islam.  I understand that it stings when someone leaves your faith for another and then tries to tell you why.  Perhaps the plugging of the ears and singing mary had a little lamb approach would work to minimize the sting.

In any case.  Most of us that were Christians did not take our reversion lightly.  I'm sure you know its a huge change from Christianity.. but Allah opened our hearts, and guided us to the truth.  I don't say that to sound superior or anything like that.  Just explaining what happened.

So please, don't assume we know nothing about Christianity.  We know plenty.... and probably now that we have reverted we know even more.  Remember, most of us have non Muslim family that ask us questions all the time that we need to be able to answer. 

Jesus (saws) was  great Prophet.  Most of his followers thought of him that way for 30 years after his death.... then Paul came along... one of the biggest persecutors or the followers of Jesus... he killed them... hated them... preached against them.  And then all the sudden he was enlightened with 'the truth'? 

I won't go on, because I really don't want to argue about it.  We don't hate Paul.  We just find him to be the one that took the message of a great Prophet of Allah astray. 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:47pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

We just find him to be the one that took the message of a great Prophet of Allah astray. 


This is the one thing that I would have to disagree with.

Pauls writings are consistent with the teachings of the gospels.

We are reasonably sure that paul did not write the gospels, hence we can conclude that paul did not change the teachings of christians.

As to whether those teachings were correct is a different matter.

Jesus, himself claimed that his death reconciled G_D and man.

The only thing we can wonder about is - was jesus a liar? or a madman? or was he G_D, as christians claim?
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:50pm
I'm talking about what Muslims believe algebra, so you disagreeing really has no weight.


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algebra
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote algebra Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 1:59pm
So you believe something irrespective of the evidence against your position?

Then that refutes your earlier position where you claim that you "know" christianity.

You cannot know christianity, and at the same time believe something completely false (with absolutely no evidence to support your view) - paul corrupted christianity.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote bayleaf Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

A lot of time it is assumed that Muslims no nothing about Christianity... but I was raised Christian and stayed Christian for 34 years... I knew about it when I was Christian and I know about it now that I have reverted to Islam. 

In any case.  Most of us that were Christians did not take our reversion lightly.
 
jamilah,
 
I am not going to attempt to question the authenticity of your 34 years as a Christian, and I shouldn't even be directing this entire post at you personally (because I don't intend it to be taken personally), but 95% of the people who convert (period) from one religion to another begin their conversion on a spiritual and emotional level.  The quality of the religious experience is initially valued more than the intellectual facticity of the religion itself.  "What I know" about x fares very little in comparison "when I feel" a certain way due to y.  If y causes me to have faith in God, the supernatural, and the beyond, while x offers me very little in the way of spiritual exultation, then it is pure idiocy to remain subjugated to that which "feels" untruthful.
 
I personally contend that men, more than women, will more thoroughly investigate the intellectual claims of a religion prior to conversion simply because men, tending to be more skeptical, have less ability to come to faith than women.  I'm not saying this a negative attribute of men or women - and I'm by no means attempting to be sexist.  In questions of religion, facticity ought to have very little to do with questions of faith.  Faith and facticity are, in fact, diametrically opposed.  If there is facticity, what need is there for faith?  If there is faith, what need is there for facticity?
 
My point is this: Faris wishes to say, 'A-ha, Westwind, you dirty Christian scallywag, now that I have achieved enlightenment by the hand of Allah and his Prophet, I wish to demonstrate to you the enlightenment which I experienced as a result of an internal spiritual-emotional conversion combined with my own personal reading of critical biblical scholars which, in truth, reinforced and nurtured my earlier intrigue.'  In other words, you wish to demonstrate through facts why Westwind's faith is wrong?  How inconsistent.
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by algebra

So you believe something irrespective of the evidence against your position?

Then that refutes your earlier position where you claim that you "know" christianity.

You cannot know christianity, and at the same time believe something completely false (with absolutely no evidence to support your view) - paul corrupted christianity.



No dear, you have it all wrong.  You said you disagree that Muslims feel a certain way about something.  you can't really do that. 

And yes, I can know Christianity, and believe something else.  You need to step back and stop being so self righteous as to tell me what I can and can't know... you really are funny sometimes.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by bayleaf

jamilah,
 
I am not going to attempt to question the authenticity of your 34 years as a Christian, and I shouldn't even be directing this entire post at you personally (because I don't intend it to be taken personally), but 95% of the people who convert (period) from one religion to another begin their conversion on a spiritual and emotional level.  The quality of the religious experience is initially valued more than the intellectual facticity of the religion itself.  "What I know" about x fares very little in comparison "when I feel" a certain way due to y.  If y causes me to have faith in God, the supernatural, and the beyond, while x offers me very little in the way of spiritual exultation, then it is pure idiocy to remain subjugated to that which "feels" untruthful.
 
I personally contend that men, more than women, will more thoroughly investigate the intellectual claims of a religion prior to conversion simply because men, tending to be more skeptical, have less ability to come to faith than women.  I'm not saying this a negative attribute of men or women - and I'm by no means attempting to be sexist.  In questions of religion, facticity ought to have very little to do with questions of faith.  Faith and facticity are, in fact, diametrically opposed.  If there is facticity, what need is there for faith?  If there is faith, what need is there for facticity?
 
My point is this: Faris wishes to say, 'A-ha, Westwind, you dirty Christian scallywag, now that I have achieved enlightenment by the hand of Allah and his Prophet, I wish to demonstrate to you the enlightenment which I experienced as a result of an internal spiritual-emotional conversion combined with my own personal reading of critical biblical scholars which, in truth, reinforced and nurtured my earlier intrigue.'  In other words, you wish to demonstrate through facts why Westwind's faith is wrong?  How inconsistent.


You sure can talk Bay... what is your major again?  I hope something to do with writing.  Anyway... the OP was about why muslim 'hate' paul.  1.  we don't hate him.   2. All of our posts are to answer this question.  If a question is asked an answer will be given.  If you all want to argue and say no you don't yes you do bla bla bla feel free.  But we are just answering the question. 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:41pm
95% of the people who convert (period) from one religion to another begin their conversion on a spiritual and emotional level.  The quality of the religious experience is initially valued more than the intellectual facticity of the religion itself.  "What I know" about x fares very little in comparison "when I feel" a certain way due to y.  If y causes me to have faith in God, the supernatural, and the beyond, while x offers me very little in the way of spiritual exultation, then it is pure idiocy to remain subjugated to that which "feels" untruthful.

I strongly disagree, and will open a new thread about this.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Westwind Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2008 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

95% of the people who convert (period) from one religion to another begin their conversion on a spiritual and emotional level.  The quality of the religious experience is initially valued more than the intellectual facticity of the religion itself.  "What I know" about x fares very little in comparison "when I feel" a certain way due to y.  If y causes me to have faith in God, the supernatural, and the beyond, while x offers me very little in the way of spiritual exultation, then it is pure idiocy to remain subjugated to that which "feels" untruthful.

I strongly disagree, and will open a new thread about this.


Actually, I would agree with it somewhat.  I've seen many people adopt a religion, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Wicca, and bounce between various Protestant  denominations, because of the emotional draw of a faith community, rather than the being right with God.  The religious side is a nice addition to the feeling of community.  There is an emotional need that religious communities can satisfy.  I imagine you will start to see this as Islam becomes more common, and reverts burn out or get bored.  This has nothing to do with the religion, but the convert.
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