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InterReligious Dialogue
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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:52pm
I am sorry to hear that..   But you still have a sweet baby coming and that is a nice thing to look forward to... now back to arguing.
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 4:55pm
Yes August 20th  - a boy.

So silly to fight over these things, religion...how does it make any sense?

what if i was born muslim, and decided that it didnt work for me? would the same thing have happened?

well...enough ranting...back to the discussion.
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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 5:01pm
Perhaps it explains why you analyze religion to death.... instead of letting your heart take over.. I don't know.  I do feel sorry for what you are going through, but Allah guides who ever he wishes and perhaps there is still hope.
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Aviatrix  
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 5:24pm
Here's another angle:
 
algebra, suppose that someone is faced with death--his car fell over a bridge in a river and he's about to drown. and this is in your analogy where there are two gods. Which god should he call on for help? Or both?
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algebra
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?



UmarZ:

"If there were, in the heavens
And the earth, other gods
Besides Allah, there would
Have been confusion in both!
But glory to Allah,
The Lord of the Throne:
(High is He) above
What they attribute to Him!"
              [Al-Qur’an 21:22]

For "confusion" to reign, would imply a weakness in the nature of G_D (an imperfect understanding of the intentions of the other G_D )

How can G_D forget His very nature? Is He not omniscient? Wouldnt he know it all?

G_D could not be the author of this statement, because it would mean that G_D does not know his own attributes.

Another thing - If G_D is removed completely from creation- how can G_D exist in heaven? or is heaven uncreated?


Aviatrix:

In your example it would not matter which G_D he calls out to. Or rather, how would it matter which G_D he calls out to?
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 6:47pm
Would one god save him and the other not?
 
Would he have to call on both to be saved or could just one save him? If he called on one and not the other would that be fair? What if he was saved and then started telling people that the one god had saved him but not the other one. So people would start worshiping only the one god and not the second one, thinking the second was impotent maybe or not helping them. That would cause some conflict don't you think?
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:02pm
If a ship has 2 captains, surely there'll be confusion for the crews. How hard is that to understand.
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:10pm
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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UmarZ  
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bullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 12:07am
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by UmarZ


So you are assuming there is ever only 1 right answer? Given infinite knowledge and power there is only 1 way to do something? You are also referring to a situation. What about the beginning of creation? Is there only 1 perfect way to create a universe? Is it reasonable to assume that 2 all powerful all knowledgeable beings would want to create the exact same universes?

I know I am using human terms but since we don't have other terms to use, do you think a god does not have any kind of emotion or personality? Nothing that would make him distinct from another being that had the same characteristics in terms of power and knowledge. That seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


There is no assumption here UmarZ, there can only ever be 'one' perfect answer.


That's an awfully big assumption. You are trying to convince us that there could be 2 all powerful, all knowing gods but want to limit every situation to one perfect answer? Why?

Originally posted by algebra


 To use your computer analogy, the universe is a closed system to G_D(s), they have perfect knowledge of it from start to end. Hence no matter how they approach it the perfect answer will always be the same.


OK so using another computer analogy, if you and I are given the exact same specs to write a program, and lets assume the specs are perfect in detail and describe exactly what needs to be done. Couldn't we each come up with a different way to accomplish that? Couldn't both approaches be equally efficient and equally correct without the programs we create being exactly the same?

Originally posted by algebra


Originally posted by Umarz



Right you can't use infinity in math because its not a real number.

OK, take the mortality of the proposed gods out of it. Does it makes sense that there can be more than one being that is infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of a second god mean they are not infinitely powerful? If one god created something and the other wanted to destroy it. If the one cannot destroy it how can he be infinitely powerful? If one cannot protect it how can he be infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of more than 1 put a limit on the power of one or both of them?


Why should it be a limit? why can you not have 2 infinitely powerful beings?

This is the exact same question i posed to amy.


I think I explained that. How can 2 infinitely powerful beings exists. The very nature of 2 beings means 1 must be more powerful than the other or they are both limited by the fact that they can not affect each other or each or each others creations or do something contrary to the others will. How can that not be a limit?

Originally posted by algebra


Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?


I will search for this and post it.


Originally posted by Umarz



That is actually not a hard question. Allah exists outside of his creation and he can always affect it. Allah can create something so heavy nothing in creation can lift it. But he will always be able to move, destroy whatever that object because it is his creation. And what is weight? Weight is a part of the system Allah created, it is based on mass and gravity, which are all part of Allah's creation. Without these things the object weight is meaningless.



You have not answered the question, you have only shown me  - like I showed you with the mortality question - that the question itself is incorrect.

I have a follow up question to this one though - if G_D is outside of creation and G_D is in heaven.

How can G_D be contained by heaven? For that matter G_D sitting on his throne as mentioned in the quran - is the throne created ? or not?


I did answer the question. Allah can not create something so heavy he can not move it. That is not a limit of his power that shows the extent of his power because no matter how large he makes it, so large we couldn't even begin to possibly fathom it, he can always affect it, move it, destroy it

Allah is not in heaven, he is above it and he does not sit on his throne he is above it.

It is Allah who erected the heavens without pillars that you [can] see; then He established Himself above the Throne (Qur'an 13:2)

His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth (From ayat al Kursi 2:255)

So his Kursi (footstool) is over the heavens and he is over his throne.
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UmarZ  
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bullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 12:17am
Originally posted by algebra

Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?



UmarZ:

"If there were, in the heavens
And the earth, other gods
Besides Allah, there would
Have been confusion in both!
But glory to Allah,
The Lord of the Throne:
(High is He) above
What they attribute to Him!"
              [Al-Qur’an 21:22]

For "confusion" to reign, would imply a weakness in the nature of G_D (an imperfect understanding of the intentions of the other G_D )

How can G_D forget His very nature? Is He not omniscient? Wouldnt he know it all?


 The translations I looked up for this verse all say "they would have both been ruined" in place of the line about confusion.

You are making a jump here that I don't get. Allah's attributes are all based on his oneness so saying those attributes apply in a situation of mulitple gods is a leap. It is saying that had there been other Gods in heaven and earth it would have caused ruin in both. Allah is disputing your assertion that mutliple Gods would all have the same purpose, goal, plan, etc and no difference would ever arise which I still contend is a huge leap of faith.

Originally posted by algebra


G_D could not be the author of this statement, because it would mean that G_D does not know his own attributes.

Another thing - If G_D is removed completely from creation- how can G_D exist in heaven? or is heaven uncreated?


Answered in my other reply, he is not in heaven, he is above it as it says in the Qur'an and multiple ahadith.


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scruggnut  
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bullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 9:37am
How can any of you even try to describe the ability or inability of 2 gods who work together?
Any attempt to do so is ludicrous.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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Aviatrix  
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bullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 4:31pm

Ludicrous because the existence of 2 gods is entirely illogical, because there must only be One, and He as revealed Himself to us?

Or some other reason?
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scruggnut  
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bullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 8:47pm

Ludicrous because any example we would use would be from an entirely human perspective...2 gods working together would not and could not, work together like 2 human beings, provided the 2 gods co-existed at all.

I'm more inclined to believe in the idea of one god, if any at all; but again...this is from the perspective of a human being; which is all i, and consequently we, have to work with
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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amoxoxoma  
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bullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 2:18pm
Originally posted by algebra

The question that begs asking about the trinity is this.

What defines one G_D?

Can one G_D be defined as - One mind, one purpose?

Is this what christian scripture says?  perhaps a christian can give us his input.
 
Relevant scriptures from a website regarding Biblical Panentheism found here
 
 
The Bible on the Divine Presence:

In Christ were created all things in heaven and on earth
everything visible and everything invisible.... Before anything was created, he existed, and he holds all things in unity. —Col. 1-15-17

...the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him.
—2 Chr. 2:6 KJV

The heavens declare the glory of God,
the vault of heaven proclaims his handiwork;
day discourses of it to day,
night to night hands on the knowledge. —Ps. 19.1-2

Deep is calling to to deep as your cataracts roar;
All your waves, your breakers have rolled over me. —Ps. 42.7

Where could I go to escape your spirit?
Where could I flee from your presence?
If I climb the heavens, you are there,
there too, if I lie in Sheol.
If I flew to the point of sunrise, or westward across the sea
your hand would still be guiding me, your right hand holding me.
—Ps. 139.7-10

We could say much more and still fall short; to put it concisely, "He is all."
—Sir. 43.27

Do I not fill heaven and earth? It is Yahweh who speaks. —Jer. 23.24

Look at the birds in the sky. They do not toil or reap or gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. ... And why worry about clothing? Think of the flowers growing in the fields; they never have to work or spin; yet I assure you that not even Solomon in all his regalia was robed like one of these. —Mt. 5.26,28-29

Through him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through him. All that came to be had life in him and that life was the light of men, a light that shines in the dark, a light that darkness could not overpower. —Jn. 1.2-5

The bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world...I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never be hungry. —Jn.6.33,36

In him we live, and move, and have our being.... "We are his offspring." —Acts 17.28 NIV

For from him, and through him and to him are all things. —Rm. 8.36 NIV

There is one God who is father of all, over all, through all and within all. —Eph. 4.6

God is love, and anyone who lives in love, lives in God, and God in him. —1 Jn. 4.16

God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
—1 Jn. 1.5

... 

Most great truths of Christian faith, and perhaps most great truths, period, are expressed as paradox. God is completely One, and yet, Triune and Infinite. Jesus is fully and completely human, but fully divine, as well. Panentheism presents another one: God is completely transcendent, and yet, immanent throughout his Creation. Like the mysteries of Trinity and Incarnation, panentheism is an ancient theological realization.

The Greek Church Fathers referred to the transcendence of God as God's "essence" (ousia) and the immanence of God as his "energies" (energeia). In 553, at the Second Council of Constantinople, the universal Church proclaimed a panentheistic vision of the Trinity, developed from St. Paul's writing in Ephesians: "There is One God and Father from whom all things are, one Lord Jesus Christ through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are." God is in all things, for they spring from him, and all things are in God, for they subsist in him, yet he transcends all as well as emanates in all.

...

No view of God is larger than the panentheistic view. All other theisms (deism, theism, polytheism, animism, pantheism, atheism) are fragmented theologies compared to panentheism. This is the ground for an inexhaustible faith-that God is present right now, in every cell of our bodies, in every beat of our hearts, in every person, in every star, in every loving thought, birthing every particle of every atom of the entire Creation into a constant stream of existence, the invisible Nothing and Nowhere that brings forth Everything and Everywhere. God in all things and all things in God invites wonder...

I acknowledge this is a cut/paste from another website. I can't put it any better in my own words, but if the admin feels the cut/past is too long I will edit the post. 
 
In Sufism there is a very similar idea - Wahdat-ul-Wujood :
The more deeply we are our true selves, the less self is in us.
Meister Eckhart
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