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InterReligious Dialogue
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waheed1  
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 2:46pm
ets not forget - lying to murder an opponent of islam being accepted by Allah, who also states that killing one person is like killing all of humanity.

Not to mention Allah that asks men to deny themselves wine in this world, only to present them with rivers of wine in the next.


Murder allowed by islam? I never saw that in the Qur'an, and the 'rivers of wine" is simply a metaphorical expression about a heaven or paradise we have never experienced.

Good luck to you.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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hamayoun  
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 3:45pm
Salam

Please stay on topic, thank you everyone.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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ScoobyGurl  
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by bayleaf

The only logic involved in converting from Christianity to Islam is the disassociation of God from an otherwise triune nature, which, in the minds of those who ultimately convert, has been a gradual process nonetheless.  It's not to say some people don't have epiphanies, but what are those epiphanies rooted in?  I don't convert to Islam because the theological and philosophical presumption of tawhid is logically sound.  I convert because the concept of tawhid makes me feel something. 

The triune nature of God does not have to make a lick of sense if I willingly choose to believe.  I do not have to be able to explain what a hypostasis is in order to enjoy the merits of following Christ and living a Christian life.  And I most certainly do not need to ponder for long the tawhid of Allah if I'm already spiritually and emotionally perplexed, fatigued, and dead to what I'm hearing from the pulpit.


I disagree. Yes, believing in God can make you feel something but belief in God or one God, I think can be logical. As a Religious Studies major in college, I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the concept of Philosophy of Religion, which in some respects, does use logic to explain certain religious concepts. So why isn't possible for logic to be involved in process of accepting tawheed. This doesn't mean that there aren't some converts who didn't use logic when converting but your statement implies that it's not possible.
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:02pm
 
I said in a post elsewhere. Converting to Islam is easy. However making the switch from Islam to Christianity commonly brings with it complete rejection from within Islamic society, immediate as well as extended family and thats just in the West. In many Islamic theocratoc states one can expect the latter as well as demotion in employment at one end of the scale through to death at the other, with many other discomforting trials in between. That to me is a true demonstration of faith.  Now i know some Muslims converts here have claimed to have been treated shamefully when switching but this is extremely rare, certainly nowhere in comparrison.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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bayleaf  
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by ScoobyGurl

I disagree. Yes, believing in God can make you feel something but belief in God or one God, I think can be logical. As a Religious Studies major in college, I'm sure you're at least somewhat familiar with the concept of Philosophy of Religion, which in some respects, does use logic to explain certain religious concepts. So why isn't possible for logic to be involved in process of accepting tawheed. This doesn't mean that there aren't some converts who didn't use logic when converting but your statement implies that it's not possible.
 
Isn't this what I said, tho?  Did I not say that the only logic involved in conversion from Christianity to Islam is the disassociation of God from all other things, including the triune nature which central to Christianity?  But, in the same breath, I still maintain that logically coming to the realization of tawhid is not the catalyst for the actual conversion; otherwise, a person who "converts" based upon competing ideologies without an actual, true 'turn around', or change of heart, is no better than the whole of German Philosophy, latching onto that which seems most suitable to the age.
 
EDIT:  Does the shahadah not say, "I testify (bear witness) that there is no god except for Allah, and I testify (bear witness) that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"?  What does this mean?  Does it not just mean that I affirm as fact that Allah is One Allah, but also I bear witness (i.e., I choose to live as if) as if Allah is One Allah?  Without the latter part, there is no conversion to Islam and the remaining pillars rest on quicksand.
 
Take me, for instance.  I actually agree with the Islamic concept of tawhid, and I have stated before my own certain disaffections for the triune God.  I've even stated in this very forum, only a few months ago, as a Catholic Christian, that I could even accept Muhammed as a prophet and his message of divine origin.  But I'm not a Muslim, and I have no inclination to ever be a Muslim again no matter what anyone, not even family, might happen to say.  Why?  Because I, personally, feel no spiritual connection to Islam. 
 
And, speaking of the Philosophy of Religion, I should like to quote James Fitzjames Stephen, who the father of the Philosophy of Religion, William James, also quotes in his essay entitled, "The Will to Believe":
 
What do you think of yourself? What do you think of the world? ... These are questions with which all must deal as it seems good to them. They are riddles of the Sphinx, and in some way or other we must deal with them. ... In all important transactions of life we have to take a leap in the dark. ... If we decide to leave the riddles unanswered, that is a choice; if we waver in our answer, that, too, is a choice: but whatever choice we make, we make it at our peril. If a man chooses to turn his back altogether on God and the future, no one can prevent him; no one can show beyond reasonable doubt that he is mistaken. If a man thinks otherwise and acts as he thinks, I do not see that any one can prove that he is mistaken. Each must act as he thinks best; and if he is wrong, so much the worse for him. We stand on a mountain pass in the midst of whirling snow and blinding mist, through which we get glimpses now and then of paths which may be deceptive. If we stand still we shall be frozen to death. If we take the wrong road we shall be dashed to pieces. We do not certainly know whether there is any right one. What must we do? 'Be strong and of a good courage.' Act for the best, hope for the best, and take what comes. ... If death ends all, we cannot meet death better."
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:06pm
I am sorry, I think I have missed some conditioning.

What is logical about 'one' god, as opposed to 10 gods?

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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:11pm
Think about if you had two presidents of the USA. One Democrat, and one Republican. What could ever get done!? We have two Democrats running against each other now and even they can't agree!!!
 
So more than one ruler doesn't make sense logically, there would be conflict--who would be superior? There has to be only One.
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:26pm
You are also assuming that G_Ds would be imperfect in the sense that they would not have a perfect understanding of each other.

I posit that G_Ds having perfect faculty would be in perfect agreement in all matters.

let us establish that these G_Ds have the same essential qualities as the quran defines.

omnipotent, omniscient beings.

You are projecting human failings onto G_Ds, to prove your point.
However the basic definition of G_Ds nullifies your arguement.

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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:44pm
Not really. You in fact are projecting the perfection of the unity of God (tawheed) onto the situation, assuming that God is the same, meaning there is only One.
 
If there were more than one God, which one would people need to rely on? If one god were a creator god and the other a destroyer, how could there be any agreement, it only makes sense for One to do both.
 
The attributes of God, like being omnipotent and omniscient, these only make sense if they are attributed to Only One. Which is why I'm saying you are the one projecting the perfection of God's Unity onto something that inherently would be flawed.
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:48pm
what is the problem with Islam is the multiple personilities in the theology which we(christians who had came from Islam) don't know that it refers to the one God. Since Islam is simple then we could never know what personality he has, nevermind what form he has, and what to do in our obligation. I usely see when christians convert to Islam that they carry the christian personality theology to Islam than from a taliban(who is a muslim) who sees otherwise--->.      
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 5:54pm
uh? omni is latin for 'all'

all powerful , all knowing, immortal.

Uni is latin for 'one'.

All knowing, all understanding beings that are all powerful would never dispute because they would be of 'one mind' on all matters.

Since there is only 'one' perfect understanding of any matter, we have to conclude that both beings would have the exact same understanding.

Essentially no dispute.

Suddenly islam is seeming to me, more and more like a man made faith, and even more so by a man with a rather limited intellect.

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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:10pm

Actually what you're saying when you write "both beings would have the exact same understanding" is that both being are the exact same. Meaning there aren't two beings. Just ONE. Which was my point.

The limited intellect I'm seeing here is indeed responsible for a man-made religion. That would be your intellect, and your religion.
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:10pm
I've shared my story here, is there anyone else that can give us a few lines about how they came to Islam and how it changed their lives.  It might help steer things away from the bitter negativity that this thread was not meant for. :)
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hamayoun  
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bullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I've shared my story here, is there anyone else that can give us a few lines about how they came to Islam and how it changed their lives.  It might help steer things away from the bitter negativity that this thread was not meant for. :)

Or, more precisely, what brought you from Christianity to Islam.  Would you have come without the reason and logic?
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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