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Message Icon Topic: Conversion from Christianity to Islam: wh(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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scruggnut  
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

LOL. No.
 
You stated two beings, but provided a situation which can only exist when there is ONE being.
 
So there must only be One.
But, if the 2 beings were gods, how would we, as human beings and not gods, know or understand how effectively 2 gods (even if they were seperate beings) could work together?
I think you are looking at it in a human perspective...i.e, using governments as a diagram or model just doesn't cut it when talking about something we cannot understand.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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hannah114  
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by algebra


Either way you should never claim you converted because islam is more logical- its not.
 
 
who are you to claim that you know why Amy reverted to Islam? are you some all-knowing being of some sort? for someone as confused as yourself who changes his religion like an old pair of socks you are in no position to judge others
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:42pm
Actually I dont know why Amy converted to islam. I made that very clear.

I simply stated that it cannot be because islam is more logical because its not more logical.
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:58pm
Although I'd love to reply to some of the posts on this, I am going to leave it and just try to reply to the topic of the post.

I was born into a Christian family, my father was raised Catholic and even went to Seminary for a few years before deciding it wasn't for him. My mother was raised Lutheran. I was baptised Catholic for the benefit of my father's mother who wouldn't hear of us being baptised Lutheran, but we were raised Lutheran. My father had found too much in Catholicism that didn't make sense to him. I grew up attending church every week, going to Sunday school, participating in youth activities. I was so involved that when my confirmation class had to put on our own service prior to being confirmed I was selected to act as the pastor and led the service. Like many people, after confirmation and due to college and things I fell away from regular church attendance but maintained a deep believe in God and prayed daily.

My wife (Jamilah) already told a lot of the in between how we had thought several times about going back and did for a while after my mother died and our son was born but nothing really seemed to stick and we never really found a place that fit our beliefs.

When we decided to start thinking more seriously about religion a couple of years ago and started reading the bible, I came at it from a logical perspective. I am a computer programmer, and always excelled in math, science and logical studies in school, so that has always been the tool I have relied on in most areas of my wife.

As we read the Bible, I found many things that were contradictory and didn't make sense. Some verses saying the son is not responsible for the sins of the father others saying that people are punished to a thousand generations (sorry don't remember the number or the verse) for the sins of the father. And of course the concept of original sin where all of mankind is born into sin for the sin of Adam and Eve. There are many examples, but as I started to learn about Islam these contradictions went away. There was no concept of original sin, people are only responsible for their own sins. Children are not damned to hell if they are not baptised. Children who die go to paradise because they are innocent of sin until they are capable of understanding it. This made much more logical sense to me. How can a fair God punish people for things they didn't do or things they don't understand?

I continued to cling to the emotion of Christianity, I had a hard time letting go of my concept of Jesus even though the trinity does not make logical sense. Islam was much more logical to me. I had several oportunities to be pulled by emotional things, that I can't really explain. I tried very hard to not pay attention to things I now see as obvious signs as I had been praying for guidance. I got to the point that I had accepted that the Islamic concept of God and Tawhid were more logical. I had even accepted that Jesus was not sent to die for our sins. I had some good Muslim friends that helped me with some historical things that I didn't quite understand. I was to the point that my logical side had accepted the truth of Islam but I still clung to Christianity from an emotional perspective.

In the end I needed an emotional experience to pull me away from the emotional attachment to Christianity and I got that one day when  friend advised me of a prayer to say in asking for guidance. I had the emotional experience I needed immediately after saying that du'a. My logical acceptance of Islam could finally overcome my emotional attachment to Christianity and I said my shahada. Alhamdulillah.
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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:29pm
Originally posted by algebra

Actually I dont know why Amy converted to islam. I made that very clear.

I simply stated that it cannot be because islam is more logical because its not more logical.


Just cause you say it don't make it true...
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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:54pm

It is possible that a person can convert to another religion threw logic and not have emotion play a significant role. From where Iím standing youíre putting a limitation on people when you say that they canít. Humanity is vase and what we can do at times seem unless. What makes sense to one person, or whatís logical to them is not logical to everyone. I believe that someone using their standard of logic and thinking can come to the conclusion that there exist many Gods, or one God or no God. It is true that all conversion has some form of emotion within it but to dismiss how large a place logic has within the conversion process is not very logical to me; maybe itís logical to you.

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bullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:10pm
Let me try another example as two why the weakness in algebra's argument is the fact that there are "two" and that there being "two" implies faults in perfect divinity.
 
Let's look at two identical twins. They were born from the same mother, same father, have the exact same DNA so are physically identical. They are the same in every way possible.
 
But they are two individuals. Even though they are exactly the same, they won't have the same view of everything, they are two individuals who will disagree.
 
Your theory of two gods who are exactly the same is similar to my example. In both cases, the view of each CANNOT be the same as the other's. So they are different. It is not possible to ignore that difference, to gloss over it by saying they are the same.
 
The only way for real sameness to exist is in the existence of ONENESS. 
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 11:41am
Why CANNOT the 2 G_Ds have the same view on every situation?

Again you are imposing a human limit (incomplete understanding of a situation) on the nature of G_D.

You simply cannot redefine the nature of G_D (not omniscient) at whim - to limit the nature of G_D - to a human notion of oneness.

Their understanding of all matters is complete. Since there can be only one perfect and complete understanding - they will be in complete concordance on all matters.

If they are omniscient,  they will always be of one mind.

Again Amy, I believe I have made my case.
It doesnt interest me to repeat over and over the same idea.

If you are content with your understanding of the matter, that is fine.

However if in the interest of truth, you are willing to continue this discussion I will be only to happy to comply. We only learn by exploring.

I would love to pursue this discussion if only to see where we end up.

For me too this has been an eye opening discussion.

At the start of this thread, my greatest problem with christianity was their notion of the trinity.

After this discussion with you, I will have to revisit their scriptures, because their definition of G_D seems plausible.
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 12:32pm
Originally posted by algebra

Why CANNOT the 2 G_Ds have the same view on every situation?

Again you are imposing a human limit (incomplete understanding of a situation) on the nature of G_D.

You simply cannot redefine the nature of G_D (not omniscient) at whim - to limit the nature of G_D.

Their understanding of all matters is complete. Since there can be only one perfect and complete understanding - they will be in complete concordance on all matters.

If they are omniscient, they will automatically think the same thing at the same time, they will be of one mind.


You are doing exactly what you are accusing Amy of here. You are applying your incomplete understanding. You are making God into a computer that if you take 2 computers and program then exactly the same they will produce the same output. You are completely removing any aspect of personality (obviously not necessarily our understanding of personality) from God.

Look at Allah's creation. He created Angels to obey him completely and worship him always. He created Mankind and Jinn with freewill. Can you say for sure that another omniscient, omnipotent god would not create just creatures that obeyed and worshiped him completely? Or maybe created more kinds of intelligent creatures with freewill or made it so humans could see Jinn also or any other possibility? Just because they would both be all knowing and all powerful does not mean they are identical in every way? And if there was more than one, why wouldn't they create separate universes/creations to be the lord of instead of sharing one universe? You are showing a very narrow view of this and then criticizing others for not sharing your narrow view.

If there were 2 all powerful gods, could one destroy the other? If not then are they all powerful? If so are they all powerful? I think being all powerful may negate there being more than 1.

Originally posted by algebra


At the start of this thread, my greatest problem with christianity was their notion of the Trinity.

After this discussion with you, I will have to revisit their scriptures, because their definition of G_D seems plausible.


But the trinity is not 3 gods right? It is one God in 3 parts or something. The 3 parts being different, having different roles, different personalities so to speak but somehow being in complete agreement as 1 God.
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 1:44pm
2 computers will always give you the same output for the same input because each computer program defines a closed system.
In truth, within the closed system of the program the computer is omniscient.
(not unlike G_D and the universe)

Humans will not give you the same output because we do not know everything about the system i.e. the universe.
When you refer to personality, personality is not really a distinct component of a persons identity , as much as personality is the sum total of a persons understanding of their lifes experiences.
This is why personalities are different - it is because two peoples understanding of a situation is different.

However in the 2 G_Ds hypothesis this is not the case. They will both have complete and perfect understandings of any situation. (And there can be only 1 complete and perfect understanding of any situation)

Again the Omnipotence idea is a logical fallacy - let me ask you a question since you say you understand mathematics - which is greater infinity or infinity + 1.
If both G_Ds are infinitely powerful, equalities and inequalities do not hold.

I already considered this possibility prior to posting.
Again you are trying to define a human trait for G_D.

Destruction (or any such mortal trait) is not defined for G_D(s)

In other words, ask yourself the question - if your G_D is all powerful can he commit suicide?
Can G_D impose mortality on Himself? Is mortality a trait of G_D? If not, then your question is not valid.

Interestingly the quran poses the same question, another reason why I believe that quran is the words of a man - it lacks a logical foundation.

In the same way to answer your questions
1. could one destroy the other?
Is mortality defined for G_Ds? if not , then the question is not valid.
It is akin to me asking you the question - Can Allah create a stone so heavy that he himself cannot carry it?

2. If not then are they all powerful?
Yes they are, just like your G_D is.
When dealing with infinities, I would like to remind you that equalities and inequalities do not apply.

Finally as for the trinity I do not have complete information to answer your questions, however I will say this only - it seems plausible.

But I will have to consider the prospect logically.

P.s. I too have studied mathematics (engineering) , and I am heavily involved in islamic finance. - we should enjoy this discussion.
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 2:19pm
The question that begs asking about the trinity is this.

What defines one G_D?

Can one G_D be defined as - One mind, one purpose?

Is this what christian scripture says?  perhaps a christian can give us his input.
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UmarZ  
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by algebra

2 computers will always give you the same output for the same input because each computer program defines a closed system.
In truth, within the closed system of the program the computer is omniscient.
(not unlike G_D and the universe)

Humans will not give you the same output because we do not know everything about the system i.e. the universe.
When you refer to personality, personality is not really a distinct component of a persons identity , as much as personality is the sum total of a persons understanding of their lifes experiences.
This is why personalities are different - it is because two peoples understanding of a situation is different.

However in the 2 G_Ds hypothesis this is not the case. They will both have complete and perfect understandings of any situation. (And there can be only 1 complete and perfect understanding of any situation)


So you are assuming there is ever only 1 right answer? Given infinite knowledge and power there is only 1 way to do something? You are also referring to a situation. What about the beginning of creation? Is there only 1 perfect way to create a universe? Is it reasonable to assume that 2 all powerful all knowledgeable beings would want to create the exact same universes?

I know I am using human terms but since we don't have other terms to use, do you think a god does not have any kind of emotion or personality? Nothing that would make him distinct from another being that had the same characteristics in terms of power and knowledge. That seems like a pretty big assumption to me.

Originally posted by algebra


Again the Omnipotence idea is a logical fallacy - let me ask you a question since you say you understand mathematics - which is greater infinity or infinity + 1.
If both G_Ds are infinitely powerful, equalities and inequalities do not hold.


Right you can't use infinity in math because its not a real number.

OK, take the mortality of the proposed gods out of it. Does it makes sense that there can be more than one being that is infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of a second god mean they are not infinitely powerful? If one god created something and the other wanted to destroy it. If the one cannot destroy it how can he be infinitely powerful? If one cannot protect it how can he be infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of more than 1 put a limit on the power of one or both of them?

Originally posted by algebra


I already considered this possibility prior to posting.
Again you are trying to define a human trait for G_D.

Destruction (or any such mortal trait) is not defined for G_D(s)

In other words, ask yourself the question - if your G_D is all powerful can he commit suicide?
Can G_D impose mortality on Himself? Is mortality a trait of G_D? If not, then your question is not valid.

Interestingly the quran poses the same question, another reason why I believe that quran is the words of a man - it lacks a logical foundation.


What question is that? And why is it not logical?

Originally posted by algebra


Can Allah create a stone so heavy that he himself cannot carry it?


That is actually not a hard question. Allah exists outside of his creation and he can always affect it. Allah can create something so heavy nothing in creation can lift it. But he will always be able to move, destroy whatever that object because it is his creation. And what is weight? Weight is a part of the system Allah created, it is based on mass and gravity, which are all part of Allah's creation. Without these things the object weight is meaningless.


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UmarZ  
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by algebra

The question that begs asking about the trinity is this.

What defines one G_D?

Can one G_D be defined as - One mind, one purpose?

Is this what christian scripture says?  perhaps a christian can give us his input.


Have fun finding any information about the trinity in the Christian scripture. 
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bullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by UmarZ


So you are assuming there is ever only 1 right answer? Given infinite knowledge and power there is only 1 way to do something? You are also referring to a situation. What about the beginning of creation? Is there only 1 perfect way to create a universe? Is it reasonable to assume that 2 all powerful all knowledgeable beings would want to create the exact same universes?

I know I am using human terms but since we don't have other terms to use, do you think a god does not have any kind of emotion or personality? Nothing that would make him distinct from another being that had the same characteristics in terms of power and knowledge. That seems like a pretty big assumption to me.


There is no assumption here UmarZ, there can only ever be 'one' perfect answer. To use your computer analogy, the universe is a closed system to G_D(s), they have perfect knowledge of it from start to end. Hence no matter how they approach it the perfect answer will always be the same.


Originally posted by Umarz



Right you can't use infinity in math because its not a real number.

OK, take the mortality of the proposed gods out of it. Does it makes sense that there can be more than one being that is infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of a second god mean they are not infinitely powerful? If one god created something and the other wanted to destroy it. If the one cannot destroy it how can he be infinitely powerful? If one cannot protect it how can he be infinitely powerful? Doesn't the presence of more than 1 put a limit on the power of one or both of them?


Why should it be a limit? why can you not have 2 infinitely powerful beings?

This is the exact same question i posed to amy.


Originally posted by UmarZ



What question is that? And why is it not logical?


I will search for this and post it.


Originally posted by Umarz



That is actually not a hard question. Allah exists outside of his creation and he can always affect it. Allah can create something so heavy nothing in creation can lift it. But he will always be able to move, destroy whatever that object because it is his creation. And what is weight? Weight is a part of the system Allah created, it is based on mass and gravity, which are all part of Allah's creation. Without these things the object weight is meaningless.



You have not answered the question, you have only shown me  - like I showed you with the mortality question - that the question itself is incorrect.

I have a follow up question to this one though - if G_D is outside of creation and G_D is in heaven.

How can G_D be contained by heaven? For that matter G_D sitting on his throne as mentioned in the quran - is the throne created ? or not?
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