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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 11:40pm
Janet Waters squeals:
Did I state to join the LDS Church?  You know there are other churches than mine....who don't teach the trinity theory as well.

Which other churches?
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Janet Waters squeals:
Did I state to join the LDS Church?  You know there are other churches than mine....who don't teach the trinity theory as well.

Which other churches?


Some other than.....
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 13,000,000+


Christian Science 400,000+
Jehovahs Witness 7,000,000+
Community of Christ 250,000+
Arian Catholicism
Oneness Pentecostals
Brothers of Christ

All Unitarian Churches:
Some Evangelicals
Assyrian Church of East
Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Othodox
Eastern Catholic
etc....
etc......

I'm sure there are a lot more than these.
And by the way..........I don't "squeal" nor does my keyboard.  Any squealing that you hear--- is created from within your own head.





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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Janet Waters squeals:
Did I state to join the LDS Church?  You know there are other churches than mine....who don't teach the trinity theory as well.

Which other churches?


Some other than.....
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 13,000,000+


Christian Science 400,000+
Jehovahs Witness 7,000,000+
Community of Christ 250,000+
Arian Catholicism
Oneness Pentecostals
Brothers of Christ

All Unitarian Churches:
Some Evangelicals
Assyrian Church of East
Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Othodox
Eastern Catholic
etc....
etc......



Thanks for sparing us all the customary kook rant and actually answering the question.

Unfortunately, it isn't the case that Orthodox or Catholic theology supports the godhead doctrine, as our tradition describes it. If you have a source that says otherwise, from a Catholic authority, please provide it.

http://www.bible.ca/mor-adam-god.htm

"We are members of the family of the Eternal Father. He is a glorified and exalted and eternal Being, having a resurrected body of flesh and bones. His name is God, and the kind of life he lives is God's life. His name is also Eternal, and the name of the kind of life he lives is eternal life. Eternal life is God's life, and God's life is eternal life. We are commanded to be perfect as he is perfect and to advance and progress until we become like him, or in other words, until we gain eternal life. Thus Joseph Smith said, "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (Teachings, pp. 346-47.) Christ our Lord has so obtained, thus enabling him to say to the faithful: "Ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father." (3 Ne. 28:10.)" (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.1, p.23 - p.24, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)

Mormons have been taught (and continue to be taught, more or less secretly) that G-d is simply a human being, who grew up on another planet, and was exalted to his present position. The "godhead" as Mormons describe it is a committee, made up of three separate gods. There is God (the God of Abraham), Jesus and the Holy Ghost. God and Jesus have physical bodies, are not omnipresent, and are only the gods of this world. The Holy Ghost is the third god, and little about him is known. These three separate gods make up the "godhead".

Now, with this in mind, I'd love to see a source from any of these other traditions which suggests anything similar. The only other tradition that comes close to our godhead innovation is Scientology, or perhaps the neo-Satanic Temple of Set, in that both of these traditions teach that human beings are eternal and are able to progress to becoming gods in their own right.

By the way: "Arian Catholics" are a movement that died out about 1000 years ago, there was a short lived revival about a year ago which existed only on the internet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Catholicism

(LOL! LOL!)

And, there aren't 13 million Mormons.

http://packham.n4m.org/morexmos.htm

Best,

Yishmael
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Thanks for sparing us all the customary kook rant and actually answering the question.


Once again I do not "kook rant."  This must be a title of your making.  Intending to insult my character yet again?

Originally posted by yishmael

Unfortunately, it isn't the case that Orthodox or Catholic theology supports the godhead doctrine, as our tradition describes it. If you have a source that says otherwise, from a Catholic authority, please provide it.


I listed Organizations who claim to be "Unitarian" according to the internet.  All Unitarian churches do not adher to the commonly accepted trinitarian tradition.  When I stated that there were other churches who did not teach the trinity theory.....I did not state what other beliefs they had.....just that trinity was not part of it.  If you would like to research about unitarian churches then you can put your own effort into it....and argue with those specific churches with what they believe or do not believe....since that is your typical strategy.

Originally posted by yishmael

http://www.bible.ca/mor-adam-god.htm

"We are members of the family of the Eternal Father. He is a glorified and exalted and eternal Being, having a resurrected body of flesh and bones. His name is God, and the kind of life he lives is God's life. His name is also Eternal, and the name of the kind of life he lives is eternal life. Eternal life is God's life, and God's life is eternal life. We are commanded to be perfect as he is perfect and to advance and progress until we become like him, or in other words, until we gain eternal life. Thus Joseph Smith said, "You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power." (Teachings, pp. 346-47.) Christ our Lord has so obtained, thus enabling him to say to the faithful: "Ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father." (3 Ne. 28:10.)" (LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.1, p.23 - p.24, LDS Collectors Library '97 CD-ROM)........bah bah......bah ect...


Stay on task....we were talking about churches who are non-trinitarian.  I was not describing what each and every church teaches in place of their non-trinitarian views.

Like I stated before....I am not going to engage in an argument with you and play your game of the day.  Sorry....find someone else to be contentious with who has the time and patience for that sort of thing.


Originally posted by yishmael

By the way: "Arian Catholics" are a movement that died out about 1000 years ago, there was a short lived revival about a year ago which existed only on the internet  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_Catholicism


The organization that started in 2006 on the internet is the one I was talking about.  Whether they are strong or not is no concern here, once again, I listed those who claimed not to be trinitarians.  But if you want to research each one....be my guest.  This was not the point, but if you want to make it a point, more power to you.  Then you can get on their sites and argue about what they believe and why they do.

Originally posted by yishmael

(LOL! LOL!)And, there aren't 13 million Mormons.
http://packham.n4m.org/morexmos.htm Best, Yishmael


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has 13 million + world wide. 

If you were at the last two General Conferences you would know that figure.  It's latest figure is posted currently on the internet as well.  But I see that you are getting your information from a ex site.....which is true to form for you.  If you want to know the truth about an organization......you go to their official site..........instead of their professed enemies, otherwise you will receive distorted views from the eyes of others who do not have the facts.


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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:05pm
Dear Janet,

Sorry, but Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Churches don't deny the trinity. The Community of Christ and the Unitarians are non-creedal churches. Some of their members deny the trinity and some affirm it.

The Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) is nice for secular Mormons, in that many of the adherents are openly skeptical/agnostic/atheist and the focus is simply on the Mormon tradition and doing good deeds in the real world, rather than nonsense about Jewish Native Americans who don't exist, an endless chain of gods stretching through the universe, and other laughable nonsense that few take seriously. Our own interpretation of Mormonism is headed in that direction, too. Someday soon, you'll be agreeing with me on all these issues.

Originally posted by Janet Waters



If you were at the last two General Conferences you would know that figure.  It's latest figure is posted currently on the internet as well.  But I see that you are getting your information from a ex site.....which is true to form for you.  If you want to know the truth about an organization......you go to their official site..........instead of their professed enemies, otherwise you will receive distorted views from the eyes of others who do not have the facts.




Richard Packham provided sources for his information...unlike you.

Again, if the LDS church's numbers were true, there would be an easy reconciliation with census data. 13 million Mormons are claimed by the church. Only about 4-5 million people self-identify as Mormons in government surveys. I wonder why that is?

And yes, you do post kook-rants.

Best,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Dear Janet,Sorry, but Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Churches don't deny the trinity. The Community of Christ and the Unitarians are non-creedal churches. Some of their members deny the trinity and some affirm it.


Like I stated before, these were listed with Unitarian Churches.  Why don't you contact them and argue with them about their beliefs instead of doing it with me.  "Some deny it and some affirm it."  Yes....that is why they were listed as they were listed....so why are you arguing about it?  Did I state that a church had to claim to be a creed or not??  Stay on task.

Originally posted by yishmael

The Community of Christ (formerly RLDS) is nice for secular Mormons, in that many of the adherents are openly skeptical/agnostic/atheist and the focus is simply on the Mormon tradition and doing good deeds in the real world, rather than nonsense about Jewish Native Americans who don't exist, an endless chain of gods stretching through the universe, and other laughable nonsense that few take seriously. Our own interpretation of Mormonism is headed in that direction, too. Someday soon, you'll be agreeing with me on all these issues.


So what....it was one on the list.  It is the choice of at least 250,000 people.  Whether you think they are dumb or not....it makes no difference to them.


Originally posted by yishmael

Richard Packham provided sources for his information...unlike you.  Again, if the LDS church's numbers were true, there would be an easy reconciliation with census data. 13 million Mormons are claimed by the church. Only about 4-5 million people self-identify as Mormons in government surveys. I wonder why that is?


This is what you get from looking to ex sites and reading such dribble.  But if that is what interests you....do it....but don't try to involve me in it.

Originally posted by yishmael

And yes, you do post kook-rants.  Best, Yishmael


Coming from you.........I'll take that as a compliment!!


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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:22pm
Dear Janet,

So, back to the topic at hand, you began by separating Christian theology into two camps. According to you, one teaches the trinity, and the other teaches "the godhead doctrine".

Your contention was that Christians should not wander away to Islam if they dislike the complexity of the trinity theory, but should find some church that teaches the godhead doctrine.

When asked for specifics, you claimed that Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches teach the godhead doctrine. When asked for references, you reversed yourself and continually attempted to reframe.

Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Dear Janet,Sorry, but Eastern Catholics and Orthodox Churches don't deny the trinity. The Community of Christ and the Unitarians are non-creedal churches. Some of their members deny the trinity and some affirm it.


Like I stated before, these were listed with Unitarian Churches.  Why don't you contact them and argue with them about their beliefs instead of doing it with me.  "Some deny it and some affirm it."  Yes....that is why they were listed as they were listed....so why are you arguing about it?  Did I state that a church had to claim to be a creed or not??  Stay on task.


So we agree that the "godhead doctrine" is limited to the specific form of Mormonism that we are both recommend holding members of. The LDS church.

You can now expound on what makes these other non-trinitarian interpretations of Christianity superior to Islam. Why shouldn't Christians (i.e. authentic Christians) join the Muslims (or the Jews, Buddhists) if they want to?

Thanks in advance for your efforts to stay on topic and address the salient points which you, originally, proposed.

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Dear Janet,So, back to the topic at hand, you began by separating Christian theology into two camps. According to you, one teaches the trinity, and the other teaches "the godhead doctrine".


You may have interpreted that.....however I never stated that.  There are churches who teach about the trinity....and there are others who don't.  Plain and simple.

Originally posted by yishmael

Your contention was that Christians should not wander away to Islam if they dislike the complexity of the trinity theory, but should find some church that teaches the godhead doctrine.


I have stated now 3 times.....I don't have a "contention."  Yet you still state that I do...you don't retain much do you.  You read, hear, and see what you choose to....this is where all your confusion comes from.


I never stated that Christians, who had a problem with the trinity, should find a church who teaches the Godhead Doctrine.  I stated that not all churches taught the Trinity Theory.  Plain and Simple.


Originally posted by yishmael

When asked for specifics, you claimed that Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox churches teach the godhead doctrine. When asked for references, you reversed yourself and continually attempted to reframe.


You demanded that I give you other churches who did not teach the trinity theory.  I stated other organizations who do not and those who claim to be unitarian (who as a general rule do not teach the trinity theory).  I did that as a courtesy, because you were unwilling to find this info yourself, then you had to be belligerent about that courtesy...now you deny that I gave these to you....even though this whole time you have argued about those I listed.  Make up you mind which it is........you want to argue about. 
Back to playing your typical games....I see that you do this....every time you back yourself into a corner......then you are confused and bewildered.

Originally posted by yishmael

So we agree that the "godhead doctrine" is limited to the specific form of Mormonism that we are both recommend holding members of. The LDS church.


The point you failed to understand over and over........I was not talking about the Godhead Doctrine---I was talking about all churches who were not trinitarians.  Stay on task.  You insert your own comments into my replys.....this is the typical mental processing you have had sense your childhood....it is no wonder you are so confused.

Originally posted by yishmael

You can now expound on what makes these other non-trinitarian interpretations of Christianity superior to Islam. Why shouldn't Christians (i.e. authentic Christians) join the Muslims (or the Jews, Buddhists) if they want to?


My point was plain and simple: Not all Christians are trinitarians.  It is not my objective.....to expound upon all the doctrines that other churches teach.  If you want to know the specifics about their teachings and doctrine....go directly to them and they will be glad to instruct you.  The last thing you need to do is look on the internet at any ex-sites and then talk as though you are the authority on the matter.

Originally posted by yishmael

Thanks in advance for your efforts to stay on topic and address the salient points which you, originally, proposed. Yishmael


Hey!! You have actually heard something that I have asked you to do over and over!!  Repetition does work!!!  Maybe you'll learn something from those words....and walk the talk! 

You are progressing in baby steps....first understanding a concept yourself....then saying the words....pointing to others of course (surely not taking that advice to yourself!!)  Maybe you will continue on this journey and learn to see yourself objectively instead of pointing the finger of scorn to everyone else in your life.  Maybe you will even be accountable for your own choices!  Hey now that is a thought!






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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:33pm
Dear Janet,

Thanks for reversing yourself, again. This conversation has been amusing, to say the least. It's a little like what it must have been like talking to the original huckster, Joseph Smith, with all his conflicting theories about Quakers living on the moon and men becoming gods of their own planets.

Just FYI: a "contention" is a position. You might want to break out your dictionary, which lists the definition as:
a point advanced or maintained in a debate or argument

Since you've already forgotten the topic (along with 7th grade English vocabulary), I'll remind the peanut gallery that the topic of this conversation is "Conversion from Christianity to Islam: Why?"

Several participants pointed out the illogical nature of the trinity concept, as one reason why an individual might want to leave Christianity in search of a more simple monotheism.

Janet has posted multiple identical responses, all indicating that Christians ought to join quasi-Christian denominations which espouse "the godhead doctrine" rather than Islam. She gave several examples, including Catholics, apparently without being aware that Catholic and Orthodox Christians do indeed hold the trinity as fundamental.

At this point, Janet has reversed herself multiple different times, and has done a rather swell job refuting her own original contention (whoops, there's the big word again) with little help from me. She has posted no references backing up any of her positions, and has simply declared all manner of easily refuted points on nothing more than her own supposed authority.

Thus saith Sister Waters earlier, about Christians who look to Islam rather than Mormonism:
If I was a Christian.....then I would look into other Christian Churches to find a better fit.  For there are more Christian churches than one.

I'm glad you've come to agree with me, Janet, that Islam is a legitimate and authentic spiritual choice for people looking for a new method of approaching the divine.

Best,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Dear Janet,

Thanks for reversing yourself, again. This conversation has been amusing, to say the least. It's a little like what it must have been like talking to the original huckster, Joseph Smith, with all his conflicting theories about Quakers living on the moon and men becoming gods of their own planets.


Careful....you are revealing your true feelings here....Mormon or anti-mormon.  This is something that you have denied all along...now is being revealed!

Originally posted by yishmael

Just FYI: a "contention" is a position. You might want to break out your dictionary, which lists the definition as:
a point advanced or maintained in a debate or argument.


I am not arguing...........you are.  No matter how you want to play words against it.


Originally posted by yishmael

Since you've already forgotten the topic (along with 7th grade English vocabulary), I'll remind the peanut gallery that the topic of this conversation is "Conversion from Christianity to Islam: Why?"


I'm not the one in the dark here....as you have effectively shown by your statements.

Originally posted by yishmael

Several participants pointed out the illogical nature of the trinity concept, as one reason why an individual might want to leave Christianity in search of a more simple monotheism.


Actually it was me who pointed out it was the Trinity concept that was illogical.  You are adding your own words here and confusing yourself.


Originally posted by yishmael

Janet has posted multiple identical responses, all indicating that Christians ought to join quasi-Christian denominations which espouse "the godhead doctrine" rather than Islam. She gave several examples, including Catholics, apparently without being aware that Catholic and Orthodox Christians do indeed hold the trinity as fundamental.


You are adding your own words instead of mine....get it straight.  You are not me......and I am definitely not you.  You are not of the same belief system as me....even though you say you are and then argue against everything I say (and everything you thought I said).

Originally posted by yishmael

At this point, Janet has reversed herself multiple different times, and has done a rather swell job refuting her own original contention (whoops, there's the big word again) with little help from me. She has posted no references backing up any of her positions, and has simply declared all manner of easily refuted points on nothing more than her own supposed authority.


Any reversal is in your mind and lack of processing ability to differentiate your words from mine, other people words from mine, what was said and what was not said.  Those who refute...those who contend.....those who belong to one church and those who belong to another. Those who know what others believe and those who are the authority towards what others believe.  It is no wonder you are fearful of faith....you can't separate your own thoughts from other people's thoughts.  Confusion is your middle name.



Originally posted by yishmael

I'm glad you've come to agree with me, Janet, that Islam is a legitimate and authentic spiritual choice for people looking for a new method of approaching the divine.


Now you are believing that I agree with you....even though you have been arguing and arguing....now all of a sudden you think that we have the same MIND!! No thanks buddy there is enough insanity in the world.....to add having the same mind as you!!!

But of course!!!  Just lump everything and everyone into one big simease twin.....then surely there is no confusion in your own mind and you can  finally rest and be at peace.  But what happens to everyone else????  Scary thought.


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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 8:32pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Dear Janet,

Thanks for reversing yourself, again. This conversation has been amusing, to say the least. It's a little like what it must have been like talking to the original huckster, Joseph Smith, with all his conflicting theories about Quakers living on the moon and men becoming gods of their own planets.


Careful....you are revealing your true feelings here....Mormon or anti-mormon.  This is something that you have denied all along...now is being revealed!


Oh LOL! LOL! LOL! I'd better be careful, lest I say something that's not entirely faith promoting and Janet lapses into another psychotic episode.

Back to the topic, don't you think that these hypothetical Christians, who you would urge to investigate Mormonism before going elsewhere, would be wise to study the teachings of Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith said that the universe was filled with inhabited planets, and that each planet had its own god. The prophet Joseph Smith revealed that the moon was inhabited by men and women who dressed "in the manner of the quakers".

You're the clever missionary who brought up the godhead doctrine and tried to pawn it off as superior to Islam. I'm just explaining it in detail.

Best,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 9:48pm
Don't wanna spoil the party here mormons, but Janet, the eastern orthodox church is nigh identical to the roman catholic church in theology. They do uphold to the Trinity and are not in any sense associated with unitarianism, the same also goes for eastern catholicism.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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bullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Oh LOL! LOL! LOL! I'd better be careful, lest I say something that's not entirely faith promoting and Janet lapses into another psychotic episode.
 
I realize that you don't promote faith of any kind....that is why you can't get any.  If a "psychotic episode" slapped you in the face you wouldn't know what hit you....you would be too caught up in arguing about if and when it happened or not.

Originally posted by yishmael

Back to the topic, don't you think that these hypothetical Christians, who you would urge to investigate Mormonism before going elsewhere........blah....blah....blah
 
does this dribble ever end?

Originally posted by yishmael

You're the clever missionary who brought up the godhead doctrine and tried to pawn it off as superior to Islam. I'm just explaining it in detail. Best, Yishmael
 
Clever is not the word here....short term memory would tell you that it was the Trinity theory that was being discussed as stated at least five times....but you haven't been "clever" enough to figure that one out yet.  Get it straight....since cleverness is something that you would pride yourself on.  Try try again. 
 
 
 
 
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