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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Topic: Coincidence ?
    Posted: 15 April 2008 at 6:38pm
 I came upon an documentry I was watching recently which got me thinking and did some research as to what it has to say might be true or not .So after some online research This is what I found ,Actually this all was started by the thread by Giovani why muslims hate paul which in turn could have been started by my thread "I was reading recently ".(I know its getting a but complicated now ,so i'll cut to the chase and get right to it )

 I first came across this when I was reading about paul and how he had seamingly mixed pagan ideas into chirstianity and then again it was brought up by this certain Documentry I recently watched... (excuse me ppl I'm bout to do a huge cut n paste job ,I hardly do so i should be forgiven )

Event Horus Yeshua of Nazareth, a.k.a. Jesus
Conception: By a virgin. There is some doubt about this matter By a virgin.
Father: Only begotten son of the God Osiris. Only begotten son of Yehovah (in the form of the Holy Spirit).
Mother: Meri. Miriam (a.k.a. Mary).
Foster father: Seb, (Jo-Seph). Joseph.
Foster father's ancestry: Of royal descent. Of royal descent.
Birth location: In a cave. In a cave or stable.
Annunciation: By an angel to Isis, his mother. By an angel to Miriam, his mother.
Birth heralded by: The star Sirius, the morning star. An unidentified "star in the East."
Birth date: Ancient Egyptians paraded a manger and child representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solistice(typically DEC-21). Celebrated on DEC-25. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.
Birth announcement: By angels. By angels.
Birth witnesses: Shepherds. Shepherds.
Later witnesses to birth: Three solar deities. Three wise men.
Death threat during infancy: Herut tried to have Horus murdered. Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
Handling the threat: The God That tells Horus' mother "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." An angel tells Jesus' father to: "Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
Rite of passage ritual: Horus came of age with a special ritual,  when his eye was restored. Taken by parents to the temple for what is today called a bar mitzvah ritual.
Age at the ritual: 12 12
Break in life history: No data between ages of 12 & 30. No data between ages of 12 & 30.
Baptism location: In the river Eridanus. In the river Jordan.
Age at baptism: 30. 30.
Baptized by: Anup the Baptiser. John the Baptist.
Subsequent fate of the baptiser: Beheaded. Beheaded.
Temptation: Taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain by his arch-rival Sut. Sut (a.k.a. Set) Taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain by his arch-rival Satan.
Result of temptation: Horus resists temptation. Jesus resists temptation.
Close followers: Twelve disciples. Twelve disciples.
Activities: Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He "stilled the sea by his power." Walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind. He ordered the sea with a "Peace, be still" command.
Raising of the dead: Horus raised Osirus, his dead father,  from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave.
Transfigured: On a mountain. On a high mountain.
Key address(es): Sermon on the Mount. Sermon on the Mount; Sermon on the Plain.
Method of death By crucifixion. By crucifixion.
Accompanied by: Two thieves. Two thieves.
Burial In a tomb. In a tomb.
Fate after death: Descended into Hell; resurrected after three days. Descended into Hell; resurrected after about 30 to 38 hours (Friday PM to presumably some time in Sunday AM) covering parts of three days.
Resurrection announced by: Women. Women.
Future: Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium. Reign for 1,000 years in the Millennium.


There are also quite a lot of similarites among other ancient Gods like the greek god attis of frygian,The greek God Dionysus,Mithra of persia but Horus seems to match the biblical jesus point for point .

Now I leave it up to you ( the reader ) to come up with your own conclusion .

We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:38pm

 Hi DD

 I've heard this theory before, though has been thoroughly debunked. 
 
 Much of whats presented in the table above under Jesus is also held by Muslims such as Born of Virgin, mother by the name of Mary, Joseph as His father figure, Gabriel the Angel visiting Mary.
 Though i think you'll find that much of what is claimed under Horus is fiction for purpose. Which makes me wonder how far some Muslims will go cutting their own nose to spite their own face when posting things which present heretical ideas to their own faith as well as the Christian faith purely because they see it as justifying the argument for corruption of scripture. Some even still cling to the gospel of Barnabus when even it doesn't fit squarely with Islam, ohh but it takes a swipe at the gospels so that will be suffice. What logic is that ?To suggest the above is true, is not only to negate Jesus as the Messiah which Islam teaches, but indirectly imply's that the concept of the Messiah belongs to Egyptian mythology and nothing more. So am i to assume you've abandoned your Islamic roots in favour of the mystery religions ?
 
 I see you never provided reffrences. However please take the time to read here for a better understanding backed by impeccable sources.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 8:46pm
Was the documentary called The God That Wasn't There? I enjoyed that film, even though it had a bit of an emotional tone to it and wasn't as evenhanded as it could have been.

I'm sure I'll offend nearly everyone here with the following, and I'll apologize in advance.

When I was a student, I spent hundreds of hours in various libraries, attempting to reconcile the story of Jesus in the Christian Bible and Book of Mormon with reality. The conclusion I came to was that no such person ever likely existed as a historical character.

This does not mean that I'm sure that Jesus did not exist. Anything is possible. This just means that there's no evidence suggesting he did, and I'm extremely skeptical.

I do love many aspects of the literary character which is Jesus Christ (saw). He teaches a lot of great lessons.

If I have faith today, it's the same sort of faith that the great Muslim philosopher ibn-Sina referred to when he wrote: thought brings about a generality of forms. That can be translated any number of ways, but I apply it (in this specific case) to mean that contemplating G-d is ultimately fruitless. If we are to spend our time thinking about Him, we will inevitably generalize Him, project our human qualities upon Him, and lower Him to our level in the process. It's easy to disprove the existence of something you can anthropomorphize.

I am grateful to G-d, even though, like ibn-Sina, I can not hope to understand Him. It's enough to know that I'm here, I'm in good health, having already enjoyed 30+ years of wonderful life on this Earth. What or who He is, and whether or not He exists is irrelevant in this context. Belief in something that the human mind can probably never comprehend is a waste of time. I thank Him regardless. Being alive is miracle enough.

Muslim philosophy is a wonderful thing, ain't it? For the first time in my life I can say: G-d is great!
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 9:37pm

DUPE Post .. sorry

out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Was the documentary called The God That Wasn't There? I enjoyed that film, even though it had a bit of an emotional tone to it and wasn't as evenhanded as it could have been.

I'm sure I'll offend nearly everyone here with the following, and I'll apologize in advance.

When I was a student, I spent hundreds of hours in various libraries, attempting to reconcile the story of Jesus in the Christian Bible and Book of Mormon with reality. The conclusion I came to was that no such person ever likely existed as a historical character.

This does not mean that I'm sure that Jesus did not exist. Anything is possible. This just means that there's no evidence suggesting he did, and I'm extremely skeptical.

I do love many aspects of the literary character which is Jesus Christ (saw). He teaches a lot of great lessons.

If I have faith today, it's the same sort of faith that the great Muslim philosopher ibn-Sina referred to when he wrote: thought brings about a generality of forms. That can be translated any number of ways, but I apply it (in this specific case) to mean that contemplating G-d is ultimately fruitless. If we are to spend our time thinking about Him, we will inevitably generalize Him, project our human qualities upon Him, and lower Him to our level in the process. It's easy to disprove the existence of something you can anthropomorphize.

I am grateful to G-d, even though, like ibn-Sina, I can not hope to understand Him. It's enough to know that I'm here, I'm in good health, having already enjoyed 30+ years of wonderful life on this Earth. What or who He is, and whether or not He exists is irrelevant in this context. Belief in something that the human mind can probably never comprehend is a waste of time. I thank Him regardless. Being alive is miracle enough.

Muslim philosophy is a wonderful thing, ain't it? For the first time in my life I can say: G-d is great!
 
 
 
See here for some non-biblical accounts of Jesus.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:28pm
Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
 
 
 If indeed they were true. Or are you an apostate from Islam also ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 10:45pm
Whats that supposed to mean Damo?
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Whats that supposed to mean Damo?
 
 Hi Hamayoun..
 
 I don't say it lightly.
 
  DD says in his post "So after some online research This is what I found"
   He provides ZERO sources. Man i could do some online research and post a thread which claims the earth is still flat.
 
 But that aside, i checked up on the claims in the table, and found that on the whole almost ALL the claims made about Horus are completey bogus. My link in my initial post provides data which is supported by the following sources and thoroughly debunks the whole Horus v Christ nonesense.
  Forgive the paste job.. But i feel the source list supporting my link  is something which can't be overlooked when something so profound is portrayed as reliable above :
  • The Routledge Dictionary of Egyptian gods and goddesses by George Hart (Routledge, 2005)
  • Dictionary of Ancient Egypt edited by Toby Wilkinson (Thames & Hudson, 2005)
  • Gods and Men in Egypt, 3000 BCE to 395 CE by F. Dunand and C. Zivie-Coche (Cornell Univ Press, 2004)
  • The Complete gods and goddesses of Ancient Egypt by Richard H. Wilkinson (Thames & Hudson, 2003)
  • Handbook of Egyptian Mythology by Geraldine Pinch (Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-CLIO, 2002)
  • The Ancient Gods Speak: A Guide to Egyptian Religion edited by Donald B. Redford (Oxford Univ Press, 2002)
  • The Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt edited by Margaret Bunson (Oxford: Facts of File, 1991, 2002 revised)
  • The Oxford Encyclopedia of Ancient Egypt edited by Donald B. Redford (Oxford University Press, 2001)
  • The gods of Egypt by Claude Traunecker, trans by David Lorton (Cornell University Press, 2001)
  • Death and Salvation in Ancient Egypt by Jan Assmann, trans by David Lorton (Cornell Univ Press, 2001)
  • The Great Goddesses of Egypt by Barbara S. Lesko (Univ of OK Press, 1999)
  • Gods, Priests, and Men: Studies in the Religion of Pharaonic Egypt by Aylward M. Blackman, compiled/edited by Alan B. Lloyd (Kegan Paul Intl, 1998)
  • Egyptian Religion by Siegfried Morenz, trans by Ann E. Keep (Cornell Univ Press, 1992, orig 1960)
  • The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Egypt: an illustrated history by Manfred Lurker, trans by Barbard Cumming (Thames and Hudson, 1980)
  • Myth and Symbol in Ancient Egypt by R.T. Rundle Clark (Thames & Hudson, paperback 1978, 1993)
  • The Ancient Egyptian Coffin Texts in 3 volumes, edited by R.O. Faulkner (Aris and Phillips, 1973, 1978)
  • The gods of the Egyptians by E. A. Wallis Budge (Dover Publications, 1969), 2 volumes

   Now to suggest what DD provided may be true, is no different to suggesting that the Messiah Jesus, spoken of in the Quran is nothing more than Egyption mythology, which logically leads to the conclusion that Quran's roots stem from there also by association with Christ's legitamacy as the Quran has Him as  genuine Prophet of God. He cannot be a Prophet of God, and at the same time be associated with Mythology of ANY kind. Which is why i say to even suggest such is true is incompatable with Islam as it is to Christianity at the very least. At worst a very grave Heresy indeed.

 So as DD says "I leave it up to you ( the reader ) to come up with your own conclusion .
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:37pm
I mean why are you calling Jamilah an apostate?
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2008 at 11:44pm
Hi Damo808,

I appreciate your response.

Originally posted by Damo808

See here for some non-biblical accounts of Jesus.


Thank you very much for the web page. I read it in its entirety. I've also read the originals (in my youth I was a big classics fan, and I can still read Latin and Greek, albeit slowly and with a grammar). Tacitus and Pliny the Younger were not writing about a historical Jesus, but about early Christians, and he was mentioned in that context.

I found it interesting that the site put a Talmud reference into the mix. The author of the site doesn't seem to realize that the Talmud has a wide variety of references to Jesus, including some which acknowledge that he didn't exist literally.

Talmud itself is not a historical work. It is a collection of debates authored by various Jewish scholars, compiled over the course of centuries. The author will be interested to note that it is also not a single book. It's very large, and might be compared to a set of encyclopedias. My wife was born into a Jewish family and we have a set in our library.

Josephus' account has been disputed and it is widely believed to be a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
In 93, the Jewish historian Josephus published his work Antiquities of the Jews. The extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources, even the recently recovered Arabic version, contain two passages about Jesus. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. Its authenticity has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This conclusion was questioned in the 20th century and the intellectual controversy will probably never be resolved. The other passage mentions Jesus as the brother of James, also known as James the Just. The authenticity of this latter passage has been disputed by Emil Schürer as well by several recent popular writers.

Even if it wasn't, Josephus never claimed to have met Jesus. He was simply passing on pieces of the story as he heard it from early Christians, and he only mentioned him in passing, in only two places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeH49SVPj8I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq0q4k_o11U&feature=related

These are clips from one of the popular films which explores the matter further.

I have a lot of respect for Christians, and I'm sure we can agree to disagree on the matter. In any event, this might help clarify the historical -vs- spiritual dichotomy which exists whenever we examine Jesus' life.

Peace,

Yishmael
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote MedGirl Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
 
 
 If indeed they were true. Or are you an apostate from Islam also ?

Jamilah is a Muslim.
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My impression of the original table there is that the accounts about Horus were just made up. I don't know if Damo was able to prove that or not; I don't have proof but that is the impression I get from reading it.

Frankly, I wouldn't believe it.
 
Moreover, I don't think Paul is attributed with the story about Jesus's birth, or any real stories about his life, so it doesn't make sense to blame Paul for the entirety of all that. Besides, Muslims believe in a lot of it too.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:41am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

My impression of the original table there is that the accounts about Horus were just made up. I don't know if Damo was able to prove that or not; I don't have proof but that is the impression I get from reading it.

Frankly, I wouldn't believe it.
 
Moreover, I don't think Paul is attributed with the story about Jesus's birth, or any real stories about his life, so it doesn't make sense to blame Paul for the entirety of all that. Besides, Muslims believe in a lot of it too.
 
 
 Hi Amy... correct you are in your suspicions on the table above. In the link i provided, each point the table makes in about Horus is completely blown away probably halfway down the page. I felt it nessessary to paste the sources as they come from research done by major universtities rather than just from a Christian source offering a rebuttal.
 
Originally posted by hamayoun

I mean why are you calling Jamilah an apostate?
 
 
 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless). She as a Muslim is free to believe whatever she wishes, and i respect that. But i respect her enough also to point out that the table  is as detrimental to Islam as it is to Christianity. Ofcourse the table falsely leans more on the similarities between the Christian account of Jesus rather than the Islamic account. But both faiths agree on some accounts regarding Christ, and those are contained in the table also. And to be honest i'm surprised no mods have locked up the thread as the claims made - true or not have absolutely no sources in which to verify where this fantasy came from. .. Now... if the shoe was on the other foot so to speak regarding Mohammud or Islam and slated either without ANY source whatsoever it would have been seized upon in minutes and closed. And rightly so 
 
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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