Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
InterReligious Dialogue
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : InterReligious Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Coincidence ? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 3 Next >>
Author Message
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 7:17am
Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Damo808,

I appreciate your response.

Originally posted by Damo808

See here for some non-biblical accounts of Jesus.


Thank you very much for the web page. I read it in its entirety. I've also read the originals (in my youth I was a big classics fan, and I can still read Latin and Greek, albeit slowly and with a grammar). Tacitus and Pliny the Younger were not writing about a historical Jesus, but about early Christians, and he was mentioned in that context.

I found it interesting that the site put a Talmud reference into the mix. The author of the site doesn't seem to realize that the Talmud has a wide variety of references to Jesus, including some which acknowledge that he didn't exist literally.

Talmud itself is not a historical work. It is a collection of debates authored by various Jewish scholars, compiled over the course of centuries. The author will be interested to note that it is also not a single book. It's very large, and might be compared to a set of encyclopedias. My wife was born into a Jewish family and we have a set in our library.

Josephus' account has been disputed and it is widely believed to be a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
In 93, the Jewish historian Josephus published his work Antiquities of the Jews. The extant copies of this work, which all derive from Christian sources, even the recently recovered Arabic version, contain two passages about Jesus. The one directly concerning Jesus has come to be known as the Testimonium Flavianum. Its authenticity has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This conclusion was questioned in the 20th century and the intellectual controversy will probably never be resolved. The other passage mentions Jesus as the brother of James, also known as James the Just. The authenticity of this latter passage has been disputed by Emil Schürer as well by several recent popular writers.

Even if it wasn't, Josephus never claimed to have met Jesus. He was simply passing on pieces of the story as he heard it from early Christians, and he only mentioned him in passing, in only two places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeH49SVPj8I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uq0q4k_o11U&feature=related

These are clips from one of the popular films which explores the matter further.

I have a lot of respect for Christians, and I'm sure we can agree to disagree on the matter. In any event, this might help clarify the historical -vs- spiritual dichotomy which exists whenever we examine Jesus' life.

Peace,

Yishmael
 
 Hi Yishmael
  The link i provided does point out that the accounts of Josephus are a point of contention among historians, however there is much also that weighs in its favour. And there is still Tacitus, Thallus, Pliny and Lucian all of whom were essentially pagans. That aside.. i can respect and understand the view of those who view take a sceptical view of these accounts as its not by these alone Christians stake their faith. 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Giovanni  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 506
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:08am
  Great links Damo, this topic is typical of DD trying hard to discredit Christianity, thing is he normally does not think things thru, and tends to chop his own legs off.  For if Jesus is a copycat god as he is insinuating, well that throws a big monkey wrench into Islams sacred Qu'ran.
May the Love of God be With you.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
desertdude  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
The Legendary King of the Desert
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 626
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:21am
 First of all I'm not saying jesus didnt exisit or his virgin birth and his miracles didnt happen .For me being a Muslim it is an article of faith for me to recognise and believe in jesus.

 But the other similarities between the biblical jesus and other pagan gods of the past Including Horus , Attis of phrygia ,Mithra of persia and dionysus including birthdates ,baptization in rivers ,crucifixtion or violent deaths,betrayal, an approximate "dead time " of three days ,resurection ,sharing titles like son of god ,alpha and omega ,lamb of god among many and accesion to heaven. Only makes one think that maybe,just maybe some one to make christianity more platable to many ,seeing some similarites in jesus and pagan gods ,incorporated the other factors into the life of jesus .

 This is just my own theory and I'm allowed to have an opinion arn't I .I could be right but then again could be wrong .

 Like I said I leave it up to you to do your own research and come up with your own conclusions regarding this .

 And it is also not uncommon to have many chirstians attribute Paganism with Islam .I have read most of them and done my own reasearch and come to my own conclusions .

 As for references You have the worlds biggest information resource at your fingertips do your research as any info posted on the internet is always somewhat baised but also does not mean its does not have any truth in it also.And its your job to sift thur the wheat from the chaff .You have to check up from multiple sources and try to form your own opinion.As i can find many sites backing up any claim I choose to make .Does'nt mean just so X number of sites back up what I say is right .

 As for josephus there is still the debate going on with out any conclusion as to wheter its a forgery or not .
 
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
desertdude  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
The Legendary King of the Desert
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 626
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:46am
 Dude Damo contarary to ur beliefs i'm not in the biz of one up manship .I just like to share to what I come across most of it not on pourpose .I came up on this horus theory on a article I was reading about on Paul .Then again in the documentry Zeitgeist .And I totally dont agree with the first part of the documentry about Jesus where this theory is also mentioned.

 This sparked my intrest and I decided to look it up and found that there is "some" truth to the link on paganistic ( Is there such a word ? ) gods and the biblical jesus .All in all it could be a conicidence but then again ?.I am willing to admit I could be totally wrong as I am not authority on anything .But like to explore different viewpoints .

 Like I said I am entitled to my own opinion and I'm just sharing it ppl here .This is neither doctrine or absolute conclusion.

 Just like the majority of chirstian and non muslims believe that Islam is religon made up by One person who lifted a lot of what he "wrote" from other scriptures .

 Some even express that idea openly here .

 Take a chill pill bro and learn to relax a little.Life is too short to go thru it being upset all the time
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
yishmael  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member
Avatar
Chairman Meow
Religion: Atheist(Atheist)
Posts: 309
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:00am
Thanks guys, for such an interesting discussion.

Originally posted by Giovanni

...if Jesus is a copycat god as he is insinuating, well that throws a big monkey wrench into Islams sacred Qu'ran.


Muslims don't seem to have the sorts of problems with literalism that Christians do.

We can't question the existence of Muhammad as a historical character, because there are hundreds of disinterested sources which verify his existence. We can question certain things about his story. What I've found (and I've been a little bit surprised about this) is that Muslims are much more open to various possibilities, and they tend to be able to agree to disagree about whether this or that actually happened.

I'm referring specifically to a debate I saw on the internet a few weeks ago. It had to do with the night journey (for those that don't know, that's where Muhammad miraculously flew to Jerusalem, and from there ascended to heaven to pray with Moses and Jesus). One party insisted that it was a literal account of something that happened in the physical world. The others pointed to sources (one of Muhammad's wives) who suggested that he remained in his tent physically, and these people argued that the journey was an allusion to a psychological process.

Despite the disagreement, none of the parties got personal, and nobody called anyone else an apostate or unbeliever. It was a vigorous but decent argument and it looked like everyone remained friends despite the different interpretations of the narrative.

Does Christ really need verification by historians? If I brought back solid proof that he was nothing more than a character in a story, would it make him any less real? If he's real to you, then that should be all that matters. The power of the story (be it the story of Jesus or the night journey) is the real, transformative power people find in deconstructing it, and using the underlying lessons to better themselves and the world they live in.

I don't believe Jesus is a historical figure (admittedly I might be wrong, and that's just my own personal conclusion) but he's real to me nonetheless.

In conclusion, I'll apologize for any offense I've given (none was intended, but it certainly might have happened). I hope that anyone who might have spoken hastily will apologize and retract any offense he might have given to another, so that we can all move on with no hard feelings.

I'm convinced that the prophets (neither Jesus nor Muhammad) would not want their stories to put friends at odds with one another. Apostasy is something only G-d can declare, because He alone knows our thoughts. And G-d knows best...

Yishmael
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 11:11am
Originally posted by desertdude

 First of all I'm not saying jesus didnt exisit or his virgin birth and his miracles didnt happen .For me being a Muslim it is an article of faith for me to recognise and believe in jesus.

 But the other similarities between the biblical jesus and other pagan gods of the past Including Horus , Attis of phrygia ,Mithra of persia and dionysus including birthdates ,baptization in rivers ,crucifixtion or violent deaths,betrayal, an approximate "dead time " of three days ,resurection ,sharing titles like son of god ,alpha and omega ,lamb of god among many and accesion to heaven. Only makes one think that maybe,just maybe some one to make christianity more platable to many ,seeing some similarites in jesus and pagan gods ,incorporated the other factors into the life of jesus .

 This is just my own theory and I'm allowed to have an opinion arn't I .I could be right but then again could be wrong .

 Like I said I leave it up to you to do your own research and come up with your own conclusions regarding this .

 And it is also not uncommon to have many chirstians attribute Paganism with Islam .I have read most of them and done my own reasearch and come to my own conclusions .

 As for references You have the worlds biggest information resource at your fingertips do your research as any info posted on the internet is always somewhat baised but also does not mean its does not have any truth in it also.And its your job to sift thur the wheat from the chaff .You have to check up from multiple sources and try to form your own opinion.As i can find many sites backing up any claim I choose to make .Does'nt mean just so X number of sites back up what I say is right .

 As for josephus there is still the debate going on with out any conclusion as to wheter its a forgery or not .
 
 
 DD the claims you mentioned, and which i have highlighted in bold above those " other similarities" have already been proven to be bogus in the link, which you obviously have paid absolutely no attention to so please if you want to continue claiming the earth is flat yes your entiteled to express your theory... but i think its only fair , and is generally expected of everyone on here to back up their claims by providing sources for their opinion. Yes we have the words largest database at our fingertips, however if someone on here was to suggest a highly revered prophet to some on here were infact a martian, providing absolutely zero justification for presenting such an idea you can see how this would open the floodgates for any amount of rediculous claims presented from both sides without the need to justify whats said. So sorry its not my job to separate the wheat from the chaff,from a gazzillion web pages out there its your job to provide a source at least for your point of view, then i may argue whether what your using as your source is wheat or chaff and vice versa.  
 
Originally posted by desertdude

 Dude Damo contarary to ur beliefs i'm not in the biz of one up manship .I just like to share to what I come across most of it not on pourpose .I came up on this horus theory on a article I was reading about on Paul .Then again in the documentry Zeitgeist .And I totally dont agree with the first part of the documentry about Jesus where this theory is also mentioned.

 This sparked my intrest and I decided to look it up and found that there is "some" truth to the link on paganistic ( Is there such a word ? ) gods and the biblical jesus .All in all it could be a conicidence but then again ?.I am willing to admit I could be totally wrong as I am not authority on anything .But like to explore different viewpoints .

 Like I said I am entitled to my own opinion and I'm just sharing it ppl here .This is neither doctrine or absolute conclusion.

 Just like the majority of chirstian and non muslims believe that Islam is religon made up by One person who lifted a lot of what he "wrote" from other scriptures .

 Some even express that idea openly here .

 Take a chill pill bro and learn to relax a little.Life is too short to go thru it being upset all the time
 
 
 No chill pill required DD. On the contrary i now regard you as light entertainment.
 
 True there have been and will continue to be threads and posts on here which can be regarded as offensive to both sides. But i think most Muslims on here as well as Christians can accept whats said IF they can justify what they say by relevent and credible sources.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
UmarZ  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member
Avatar
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 396
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote UmarZ Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless).

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two

So saying something is interesting is "Practically backing the table as legitimate?

How do you know she wasn't just replying to the initial post without having read your follow up yet (which is the case)? How do you know what is in her heart, what her intentions are? That is the problem with throwing out blind accusations, because only Allah knows someones intentions, especially when all they say is "its interesting". Something can be interesting to someone for any number of reasons.

No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by Damo808

 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless).

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two

So saying something is interesting is "Practically backing the table as legitimate?

How do you know she wasn't just replying to the initial post without having read your follow up yet (which is the case)? How do you know what is in her heart, what her intentions are? That is the problem with throwing out blind accusations, because only Allah knows someones intentions, especially when all they say is "its interesting". Something can be interesting to someone for any number of reasons.

 
"its very interesting to see the similarities between the two"
 
 IF indeed they were true....I wrote
 
 If you actually read what i wrote, i posed the question to her, admittedly in a retorical manner. Look... slate me if it makes you happy while your own makes a mockery of Islam as well as Christianity by the absurdity of the thread claim.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
jamilahz  
Graduate
Graduate
Avatar
in exile
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2176
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by UmarZ

Originally posted by Damo808

 Hamayoun, she practically backed the table as legitimate by her own words ( even after my own post provided all the unbiased information nessassary showing it to be completely baseless).

Originally posted by jamilahz

Thanks for the post DD... its very interesting to see the similarities between the two
So saying something is interesting is "Practically backing the table as legitimate?

How do you know she wasn't just replying to the initial post without having read your follow up yet (which is the case)? How do you know what is in her heart, what her intentions are? That is the problem with throwing out blind accusations, because only Allah knows someones intentions, especially when all they say is "its interesting". Something can be interesting to someone for any number of reasons.

 
"its very interesting to see the similarities between the two"
 
 IF indeed they were true....I wrote
 
 If you actually read what i wrote, i posed the question to her, admittedly in a retorical manner. Look... slate me if it makes you happy while your own makes a mockery of Islam as well as Christianity by the absurdity of the thread claim.


Damo

I didn't respond because I was too upset when I read it and didn't want to say something obnoxious (something you seem to have no problem with).  I can find lots of things interesting. Just today I heard a story on NPR that I found interesting... thats all, it was INTERESTING.  You may not know or care to know but accusing a Muslim  of being an apostate is very serious.  And I think its even a violation of the TOS of this forum, but I could be wrong.

At this point I would ask you to apologize for saying such a horrible thing to someone you don't even know.  Take a step down from your self made pedestal and admit that you were out of  line.
www.hudastore.com

www.theoneislam.com
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
desertdude  
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
The Legendary King of the Desert
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 626
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 4:42pm
Damo tsk tsk 
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:40pm

 Hey Jamilahz... i take it back... and i am truly sorry ... No sarcasm here ok

 The way i read it at the time... i assumed you bought DD's Theory and who knows maybe you still do which i will take no business in, what you do is your own thing so for that again i appologise. However as much as i may dis-agree with Islam my comment was rather to... yes get your back up... so that maybe then you'd realise and do a double take on what was really behind the smoke and mirrors of DD's coy little table.  One of your very own rolled out a thread which  not just made a mockery of what i believe in , but what you do also, i couldn't make sense of that. My comment was sarcastic and rhetorical and no i didn't think for a minute you seriously were an apostate, hence the irony of the remark.
 
 Still... i'm surprised at the reaction of other Muslims in this thread no ... not at me... but their apparent indifference to what DD's table means for Islam, the Quran, and Mohammud. All that goes down also in that table.
 
Originally posted by desertdude

Damo tsk tsk 
 
 
  The shame's on you bro... not me.. At least i can put my hands up to offending others... You won't do it even when it offends the Almighty.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
yishmael  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member
Avatar
Chairman Meow
Religion: Atheist(Atheist)
Posts: 309
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 5:43pm
Hey Damo,

Have you heard of the demythologization movement? I guess Thomas Jefferson might be considered a founder (one of many), but it apparently held some sway with a few prominent Jesuit scholars in the early 20th century. Apparently Catholic intellectuals wanted to get away from the idea that Jesus was a historical character, and simply wanted to concentrate on the underlying messages his story promotes. It'd be an interesting topic to discuss here sometime.

Peace,

Yishmael
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:09pm
 
 
 Hey Yishmael... 
 
I could be wrong but wasn't Jefferson a Deist ?
 
 As far as a demythologization movement is concerened, hell i believe that idea has been fermenting and brewing for a long long time, exactly how long is anyone's guess. But then we could go into the Illuminati, the Rosicrucian's, hell even some elements of Masonry. Its decifering the truth from the fiction thats difficult, and i'm not well read enough to know how to go about that. In MOHO, there just simply is no way prove His non-existence, and if their was, we Christians would not be present in this forum. I feel the onus is on those who support the idea He didn't exist to prove so.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
yishmael  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member
Avatar
Chairman Meow
Religion: Atheist(Atheist)
Posts: 309
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 6:42pm
Damo sez:

I could be wrong but wasn't Jefferson a Deist ?

Something like that. He liked Jesus though, and re-wrote part of the New Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

I feel the onus is on those who support the idea He didn't exist to prove so.

It's sorta impossible to prove something didn't happen. If I told you that space aliens kidnapped me last night, and let me do aerial tricks in their UFO, before returning me safely to earth, nobody would be able to prove I was a liar without sitting beside my bed. The burden of proof is upon the person who asserts something, to provide evidence supporting his theory.

You're wrong about one thing. I know many Christians who are able to reconcile the fact that Jesus is a mythological character and keep a measure of faith. It's a process called reconstructionism.

Reconstructionism is popular today among many Christians (and probably Muslims too) but it was originally spearheaded by a Rabbi named Mordechai Kaplan, in NYC. Aside from being an interesting guy, he was my grandfather-in-law's rabbi when he was a little boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordecai_Kaplan

Anyway, I think it's a shame people feel that their faith hangs on history. Even if he didn't exist in history, Jesus is a far cooler guy than many historical characters who did, and he's at least as real today as anyone else who once lived, and is now gone, simply because we're talking about him.

Take Care,

Yishmael

P.S.: You're a good man to apologize & retract, by the way. I respect that a lot.
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 3 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.