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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Damo sez:

I could be wrong but wasn't Jefferson a Deist ?

Something like that. He liked Jesus though, and re-wrote part of the New Testament.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

I feel the onus is on those who support the idea He didn't exist to prove so.

It's sorta impossible to prove something didn't happen. If I told you that space aliens kidnapped me last night, and let me do aerial tricks in their UFO, before returning me safely to earth, nobody would be able to prove I was a liar without sitting beside my bed. The burden of proof is upon the person who asserts something, to provide evidence supporting his theory.

You're wrong about one thing. I know many Christians who are able to reconcile the fact that Jesus is a mythological character and keep a measure of faith. It's a process called reconstructionism.

Reconstructionism is popular today among many Christians (and probably Muslims too) but it was originally spearheaded by a Rabbi named Mordechai Kaplan, in NYC. Aside from being an interesting guy, he was my grandfather-in-law's rabbi when he was a little boy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordecai_Kaplan

Anyway, I think it's a shame people feel that their faith hangs on history. Even if he didn't exist in history, Jesus is a far cooler guy than many historical characters who did, and he's at least as real today as anyone else who once lived, and is now gone, simply because we're talking about him.

Take Care,

Yishmael

P.S.: You're a good man to apologize & retract, by the way. I respect that a lot.
 
 Well thankyou Yishmael .
 
 Thats an interesting take you have above... 
 
 I can understand your perspective on the aliens analogy thing, however i don't think we can pigeonhole all things the same way.    The way i see it regarding the historical Jesus is that his non-existence poses more mystery than his reality. I mean how does one explain the sudden phenomenon of belief in one character by so many in such a short space of time, how does one explain the willing martyrdom by so many over a mythical character within that time.  I believe people are far easier duped by false religion now than then. People then certainly were not idiots. Who among the wealthy and prosperous at the time could have willingly wanted to be a Christian then in the beginning with everything to loose - status, heritage, wealth, honour amongst peers even their very lives  including even the lives of their immediate family in exchange for a life far removed of luxury, but of lowlyness humility and humbleness ? Can such a message sell so easily and so quickly without a spark to ignite it ?What was it that converted the gentiles, the barbarian pagan tribes to give up their hedonistic and sometimes bloodthirsty ways in exchange for one which demaned one love their enemies, turn the other cheek etc..preached to them by men un-armed alone and aparently defenceless who denied their gods to their face and yet lived. Surely they witnessed something which caused them to abandon their former ways. 
 I guess thats why religion is something which requires faith for those who do not see yet believe as the good book says.
 
 As for those christians you mentioned who believe Jesus is a Mythological character yet keep a measure of faith... Begs the question .. faith in what ? faith in a fictional character ? Like the Jedi religion ? I can see no difference. I hardly think the title of Christian is applicable here IMO. after all the litteral definition of a Christian is :  of or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ : as the cambridge dictionary would have it . Perhaps they adopt the moral example of Jesus, but thats completely different to an actual faith. What do they believe happens beyond death ? A Christian is someone who not only believes in Jesus, but believes in every prophet mentioned previous to him in the OT also.
 
 Anyways...i'm sure you have your own reasons to believe otherwise. But i don't want to be caught in the crosshairs again by anyone else for breaking thread topic rules here. A thread on it would be your best bet to go further.
 
   
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2008 at 10:07pm
"offends the Almighty"....how ?
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 9:14am
Originally posted by desertdude

"offends the Almighty"....how ?
 
 Does the Quran not say Jesus was born of a Virgin birth ?
 
that His mother was named Mary
 
that an angel fortold His birth ?
 
that He had twelve followers 'friends' ( which your table suggests 2 were theives.. other than Judas i'm unaware of who the other traitor was)
 
that He performed Mirracles ?
 
 The five listed above are upheld in the Quran also.
 
  So if a non-Muslim, non-Christian individual puts the above claims to you and suggests that the Jesus of the Quran mirrors very much that of the myth of Horus and that the Quran had perhaps plagurized the account of Horus. Who else could you suggest they'd been mistaken with ?
 
  And as far as i'm aware, there is non else in history match these pretty distinct similarities to Jesus in the Quran in such a parrallel other than your theory regarding Horus. Unless you could can enlighten me ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 7:28pm
 Dude maybe u did'nt read all my posts thorughly ,Did'nt u read What I  wrote about jesus in posts here any many other threads .

 No one Is denying the virgin birth ,the miracles and the accession to heaven . Before u start ripping out your hair in a rage to flame someone on an online forum .Take the time to read what ur going to discredit.

 In your desperate attempt at self righteousness and to be a self proclaimed defender of your faith .READ what one is trying to say before u charge out the door with all cylinders firing.

 Or is this too much to ask .

 This whole thread is about a theory .Yes it could be possible that all the facts about horus are not true ,But none the less the myth exsists .Cound'nt it be remotely possible that this myth exsited at that time .As not only horus but a lot of mythlogicals gods have many things in common with the biblical jesus.To name a few Dionysus and mithra .they even share the same alleged birthday of jesus .Which we now now that it is not the actual birthday of jesus .

 If you would have taken a min extra to read ,U would know what i was putting forward was that MAYBE ( PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION HERE I SAID MAYBE I DIDNT SAY IT IS ,So I dont want a follow up flame up )That someone or a group of ppl saw the personality of the prophet jesus and decided to add spice to his character ,and to make him more than he actually was borrowed some ideas from pagan mythology and combined it with a real jesus ,to make him see more of a god like figure .

 And yes this is just my theory and I have absoutley no evidence to back it up as of now of maybe never will .But none the less it just a theory .

 I never said as u suggested that jesus is a myth as u suggest .

 Another hope for this thread was that maybe there could be a sane disscussion of wheter such a possiblity could exsit .But ofcourse all you do is just wait for something to like this to blip on ur radar and u can shoot it down ( contorary to ur beliefs I dont only post threads meant for you )


I always try to refrain from making personal remarks but some one said it very well here ,you seem to put ur self very high on ur self made pedestal ,and somehow think you are better than everyone here .And in you attempts to dole out your brand of justice u will leave no stone unturned and will say just about anything to anyone.




 
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 8:38pm
Based on the mythology articles in our encyclopedia, Horusís mother is Isis.  Isis was married to Osiris.  The article doesn't indicate for how long they were married, but I'll assume the marriage was consummated.  After Osiris is killed, Isis puts him back together again (he was hacked to pieces) except for his penis, which was tossed in a river or a lake.  Isis makes a substitute penis for him, they engage in marital relations and Horus resulted.  Little about this sounds remotely virginal.

That's as far as I've delved to this point, but the Jesus/Horus gambit doesn't sound promising.
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 9:39pm
see thats the kinda I was talking about .The facts u mentioned above also sound similar to a story about a Hindu deity I heard long time ago or maybe a combination of 2 deities.

 Almost all ancient gods have if not very some similar features.So what I was suggesting that maybe even if the facts about horus are wrong ( Although there is still debate on that ) but like today the myth about them exsist and maybe they were also present in eairlier times .And maybe some malicious group made a concoction of the real jesus with the eyptian horus and came up with a all new version of jesus ?

 Which takes me back to paul for a bit I'll qoute a passage from an article which actually is resposible for starting quite a few threads heres including this one .Now I'm not saying is 100% accurate or even true for I cannot say that .But it is also a theory which does deserves atleast some pondering

"Paul's originality lies in his conception of the death of Jesus as saving mankind from sin. Instead of seeing Jesus as a messiah of the Jewish type human saviour from political bondage he saw him as a salvation-deity whose atoning death by violence was necessary to release his devotees for immortal life. This view of Jesus' death seems to have come to Paul in his Damascus vision. Its roots lie not in Judaism, but in mystery-religion, with which Paul was acquainted in Tarsus. The violent deaths of Osiris, Attis, Adonis, and Dionysus brought divinization to their initiates. Paul, as founder of the new Christian mystery, initiated the Eucharist, echoing the communion meal of the mystery religions. The awkward insertion of eucharistic material based on I Corinthians 11:23-26 into the Last Supper accounts in the Gospels cannot disguise this, especially as the evidence is that the Jerusalem Church did not practise the Eucharist."

 and Damo spare me the holier than thou speech this time

We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:46pm
Desert, you are taking great pains to read what you'd like to see into things, it seems.

1 Cor. 11 23-26-

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.


The assumption you make is that Paul came up with this notion before the gospel writers, who were there at the last supper? You are therefor making a rather strong indictment of the low moral character of Jesus' followers, stooping to fabricating a new element of the story based on something Paul, not one of the original twelve, said. Given the high standards Jesus held them all to, is this really likely? I mean, Jesus leaves them and they begin making up stories?
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by desertdude

 Dude maybe u did'nt read all my posts thorughly ,Did'nt u read What I  wrote about jesus in posts here any many other threads .

 No one Is denying the virgin birth ,the miracles and the accession to heaven . Before u start ripping out your hair in a rage to flame someone on an online forum .Take the time to read what ur going to discredit.

 In your desperate attempt at self righteousness and to be a self proclaimed defender of your faith .READ what one is trying to say before u charge out the door with all cylinders firing.

 Or is this too much to ask .

 This whole thread is about a theory .Yes it could be possible that all the facts about horus are not true ,But none the less the myth exsists .Cound'nt it be remotely possible that this myth exsited at that time .As not only horus but a lot of mythlogicals gods have many things in common with the biblical jesus.To name a few Dionysus and mithra .they even share the same alleged birthday of jesus .Which we now now that it is not the actual birthday of jesus .

 If you would have taken a min extra to read ,U would know what i was putting forward was that MAYBE ( PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION HERE I SAID MAYBE I DIDNT SAY IT IS ,So I dont want a follow up flame up )That someone or a group of ppl saw the personality of the prophet jesus and decided to add spice to his character ,and to make him more than he actually was borrowed some ideas from pagan mythology and combined it with a real jesus ,to make him see more of a god like figure .

 And yes this is just my theory and I have absoutley no evidence to back it up as of now of maybe never will .But none the less it just a theory .

 I never said as u suggested that jesus is a myth as u suggest .

 Another hope for this thread was that maybe there could be a sane disscussion of wheter such a possiblity could exsit .But ofcourse all you do is just wait for something to like this to blip on ur radar and u can shoot it down ( contorary to ur beliefs I dont only post threads meant for you )


I always try to refrain from making personal remarks but some one said it very well here ,you seem to put ur self very high on ur self made pedestal ,and somehow think you are better than everyone here .And in you attempts to dole out your brand of justice u will leave no stone unturned and will say just about anything to anyone.

 
 
 
  ... Sorry DD..
 
   I'm not buyin that...  You can try back peddlin all you want. In your first post you said after watching the documentary you were not sure if what was contained was true or not. THEN after some research online this is what YOU found which you omitted to say was reliable or not notibly without sources. Commenting on how it was something that Giovanni had said regarding Paul which had caused you to go so out of your way to produce the data you did .  What i can't understand is that it took me less than 2 minutes to find the article required to refute this table. How long did it take you in your research to find this table ? Being that research usually includes verification to proove something either one way or another. Can't say i hold much admiration for how you conduct your research.
 
  Further i could accept if this was just a little innocent find you thought was interesting and worth posting if you were demonstrative eslewhere of neutral posts which had no bearing on one faith or another but i don't remember any.  And i do wonder however if you'd have done the same if at its root  the table was a hit peice on Islam ?
 So please spare me the insincere wishy washy gesture of impartiality on this thread. ... And me self righteous.... hahaha... gimme a break  have i not already demonstrated that me like anyone else is at times wrong and openly appologise. Though again... you stick your head in the sand. Infact your probably the most self righteous member i've encountered on here.... and believe me that reaaaaallllly is sayin somethin.
 
 Spare you the holier than thou speach
 
  I intend to... as i already said DD - your light entertainment
 
 Ohhh look there yet another ( unspecified source) article posted by DD that he even states may not be 100% acurate, but still we have to take his and the articles word for everything else...
 Geeez.. why do i think about the Gospel of Barnabus at this kinda comment.... But wait ... i feel a huge guffaw coming .. do excuse me..
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 7:04pm
* Yawn *....wake me up when u have something useful to say ..zzzzzzzzzzzzz
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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