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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Topic: A Simple Question
    Posted: 17 April 2008 at 10:15pm
 Can any one In simple an layman terms ,give me a worldy example of the trinity . The 3 = 1 and 1 = 3 .An example that would stand its ground under scrunity .I 've heard the Water theory ,The Egg theory ,The Father ,Husband and son theory ,Jesus chaniging ,wardrobe theory and quite a few others.But the can be very easily deconstructed

 I mean is all gods honest truth I cannot seem to grasp the idea of the trinity of 3 being 1 and vice versa .Just like my friend scruggy cannot grasp the idea of a god .I cannot grasp the theory of the trinity .

PS: As some will mostly claim (not naming names here )as soon as this goes up .NO this is not what u call a loaded question


We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 12:04am
I can't explain it, and can't understand it.

There's another analogy about a shamrock (3 leaves - 1 plant). These are actually mixed metaphors, because the trinity itself is supposedly a metaphor in the first place.

Jesus in the bible is praying to G-d in heaven... it doesn't make sense to see him as talking to himself. That implies something is wrong with him psychologically. I know that's going to be seen as impertinent, and I'm sorry. The only way the Christian scriptures make sense is if Jesus is a prophet, or a demigod that is subordinate to his father. He's obviously expressing gratitude and asking for help from someone else, in another place.

I hope my Christian friends don't take offense at any of this, because none is meant. I'm perfectly willing to concede that the problem is mine. Maybe I'm just not intelligent or creative enough to grasp the concept.

I would love to have someone explain it to me in a fashion that I could understand. Until someone does, I am resigned to the fact that I'll never understand it. It just seems to be a huge mass of contradictions.
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 10:10am

DD, I think the problem might be in the question and not the answers here.

You ask ‘how can 3 possibly be 1’ and any of the analogies you mentioned should answer that question.

While 1 pencil + 1 pencil + 1 pencil does not = 1  pencil,

one lead + one bit of wood + one coat of paint can = one pencil.

So the question how can 3 be 1 is easily explained.

The problem then is that the questioner expects the pencil analogy to explain all the complexities of the trinity (this is what I imagine what you mean when you say ‘they can be deconstructed very easily’) but this starts new questions which will not result in the pencil analogy.

You say you cannot grasp the idea of the trinity so I will give you my understanding if you like.

I see the Trinity as best understood as Father (God), Brother (Jesus) and Uncle (Holy Spirit).

The father is the creator, Brother is an equal and Uncle gives gifts and support.

I think the question you need to ask is why would God bother with something like a trinity?

Here I think it comes back to the above analogy. If you want to be a good father you don’t simply want to lay down the law and discipline your child when it errors. A good father would lower himself to the same level as his child at the right opportunity for the best interest of the development of the child.

In Christianity we believe that God says He is a God of Love and we also believe God demonstrates this practically, sparing no expense.

I hope this was useful.

Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 11:01am
I can grasp the concept of a god (and the older i get, the more that concept appeals to me...especially within the confines of islam); what i always maintained was that the likelihood of there being a god seemed slim.
I cannot grasp many of the tenents of organized religions, even some of those within islam; but that is a very different beast.
As far as the trinity goes, i neither believe nor disbelieve the theories that are proposed involving such a thing.
I do think that any attempts to explain such a thing will be accepted or discarded based upon ones own personal opinions of what they require from their god/religion; and, as in many cases, based on what dogmas they were fed at an early age.
However, if there is a god, i do not understand placing human limits upon it/him/her; and that is precisely what we are doing when we say that god can never be more than one.
If there is a god, it can be whatever it wishes to be...especially when we attribute such all encompasing powers to it...to then deny those powers by limiting them, seems to me, silly.
However, i do understand that in the qu'ran, allah himself claims to be only one, and that associating partners with him is one of the, if not the, gravest of sins...so i understand why muslims have a hard time accepting the concept of a trinity.
That brings up, at least to me, the idea of a very petty god who can forgive murder, rape, any number of things; but not the sin of associating partners with him...but i am using a very human perspective (which is what we all employ) to my understanding of such things; and i am not at all godlike.
I am happy to see that you consider me your friend...as i do you.
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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struggle  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 11:21am
It can be referred as attributes in God.
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Brooklyn  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Brooklyn Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 12:26pm
I'm not really religious and this analogy won't be exactly correct because none exists, and this is probably some form of heresy but it should help in showing a possible relationship of 2=1 or 3=1 being possible.
 
Man is one being, yet consists of a physical body, a mind, and a spirit.  All are seperate and distinct from each other, yet all make up one whole.  In the Trinity God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are all seperate and dinstinct yet they are all part of one God.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 3:12pm
 
 Lets be honest.... I don't think there will be anything which can trully explain the Blessed Trinity to the satisfaction of those who think of it it as  rediculous. . God's nature be He One or be three distinct individuals in One Godhead simply cannot be reasoned into our own human logic. When one says "how can" regarding God  its most likely to go downhill from there onwards from those two simple words.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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struggle  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 3:29pm

....

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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 7:02pm
"I think the question you need to ask is why would God bother with something like a trinity?"

 Actually thats a very very good question .Honestly speaking I have never thought about that angle .However the explination to this was a bit lacking

"In Christianity we believe that God says He is a God of Love and we also believe God demonstrates this practically, sparing no expense."

I could not agree more to this ,but still this does not explain the Trinity or the questioned you asked

 Ok ,another thing when one imagines a god what kind of mental image comes to mind ,now by image It doesnt have to be like a picture could be what can be best described as a feeling .Do u feel/see one God or the trinitarian god.To me when ever the chirstian god is mentioned instantly the image of chirst comes to mind ,For I cannot help it as chirstianity is so heavily associated with jesus.Always see pictures of jesus ,the cross everywhere and anywhere .So one can't help but associate a mental image of jesus with chirstianity .Another question pops to mind is I feel that jesus is pushed way too much into the limelight in chirstianity ,Even according to the bible and even If you believe in the trinity theory jesus is the THE gos he is son and his father is always more supreme to him ( Anyways thats another topic for another day )

 Back to the topic .Over to you People
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 8:10pm
This may be one of those things that is simply not fully explainable in terms that logic can grasp- like some aspects of quantum physics, for example (prime case in point; bizzare and irrational doesn't always necessarily mean it ain't so!)
 
For what it's worth, you can try this analogy if it helps: a cube is made up of six sides, six squares = one cube. Something a Flatlander would never be able to get.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by desertdude



 Ok ,another thing when one imagines a god what kind of mental image comes to mind ,now by image It doesnt have to be like a picture could be what can be best described as a feeling .Do u feel/see one God or the trinitarian god.To me when ever the chirstian god is mentioned instantly the image of chirst comes to mind ,For I cannot help it as chirstianity is so heavily associated with jesus.Always see pictures of jesus ,the cross everywhere and anywhere .So one can't help but associate a mental image of jesus with chirstianity .Another question pops to mind is I feel that jesus is pushed way too much into the limelight in chirstianity ,Even according to the bible and even If you believe in the trinity theory jesus is the THE gos he is son and his father is always more supreme to him ( Anyways thats another topic for another day )

 Back to the topic .Over to you People
 
I can understand how you.. when you think of God from the Christian perspective you think of Jesus... I guess this is probably due to the fact that Muslims find it hard to reconcile the idea of Jesus as God.. that its kinda etched in their minds so to speak whenever they view from this side... When i think of God.. i think of the Father as present but not fully distinguishable from a form of inpenetrable light which is not blinding but breathtaking to see, where-as Christ is visable but completely transformed to the form mentioned in the Apocalypse. The Spirit for me is something which i don't think is easily to comprehend in a visual manner and is another mystery like the Father.... Just my own take
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 10:38pm
OK, how about an analogy from something I experience on a regular basis?

I am required to write a spiritual piece of fiction for our occasional literary journal in our home church. When you write, there is the person doing the thinking regarding the story, there is the act of thinking, working out the details of the story, and there is the thought itself, the final product. But because this happens as a process, there is no division between or among the parts, the thinker, the act of thinking and the resulting thought. No portion of this analogy could exist without the other two.

So, getting back to the trinity, the Father is the thinker, the Spirit is the act of thinking while the Son is the thought. There cannot be an act of thinking without a thinker or a resulting thought; if there is a thinker, the act of thinking must occur and result in a thought; if there is a thought, a thinker at some point engaged in an act of thinking.

At some point, any attempt at an analogy for the Trinity will come up short. We only have three dimensions to work with while an apt description of the triune nature of God may require eleven or better dimensions. If this is true, then human language may well be incapable of describing it in much the same way language is not able to deal with time travel. While we do not have enough verb tenses to deal with time travel(future pluperfect tense, which would deal with future events that will have an effect upon the past), we may find that we lack the adjectives necessary to describe dimensions beyond the three we are acquainted with.
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struggle  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2008 at 11:17pm
Originally posted by desertdude

"I think the question you need to ask is why would God bother with something like a trinity?"

 Actually thats a very very good question .Honestly speaking I have never thought about that angle .However the explination to this was a bit lacking

"In Christianity we believe that God says He is a God of Love and we also believe God demonstrates this practically, sparing no expense."

I could not agree more to this ,but still this does not explain the Trinity or the questioned you asked

 Ok ,another thing when one imagines a god what kind of mental image comes to mind ,now by image It doesnt have to be like a picture could be what can be best described as a feeling .Do u feel/see one God or the trinitarian god.To me when ever the chirstian god is mentioned instantly the image of chirst comes to mind ,For I cannot help it as chirstianity is so heavily associated with jesus.Always see pictures of jesus ,the cross everywhere and anywhere .So one can't help but associate a mental image of jesus with chirstianity .Another question pops to mind is I feel that jesus is pushed way too much into the limelight in chirstianity ,Even according to the bible and even If you believe in the trinity theory jesus is the THE gos he is son and his father is always more supreme to him ( Anyways thats another topic for another day )

 Back to the topic .Over to you People
 
I don't know about the others but I think of jesus being in God with full of grace. When I feel i am close to him is sometimes I read or watch the Jesus story, his grace comes upon me, and I could see a complexion of jesus that my consciousness is very alert. It is what makes me think he is still alive with me.  
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 4:14am
Originally posted by desertdude

Actually thats a very very good question .Honestly speaking I have never thought about that angle .However the explination to this was a bit lacking

Hello again DD. I didn’t want to bore you with too much detail in case you were not interested.

What I was trying to say was that in order for God to demonstrate His love in the best possible way He approaches us in the best possible way. Being complex beings this changes from time to time like between a father and his son.

Sometimes a child needs a father figure to give boundaries and discipline, other times a child needs an example to follow and sometimes a child needs gifts and support to get on with things by himself.

In the same way, we as humans need differing help from God. God, through the Trinity, covers all bases if you will.

When we need boundaries and discipline we look to God the Father, Who offers us guidance and discipline in life.

When we need an example to follow we look to God the Son, Who experienced things as we did on our level.

When we need help and support we look to the Spirit Who strengthens us in our weakness.

So we have God of us (Father), God with us (Son/Brother/Equal/Example) and God in us (Spirit/Uncle/Support).

To go back to the child development thing I touched on earlier, a good father will guide and correct his child when the time is right to do so but he will also lower himself to the child’s level when the time is right. This might involve talking like a baby to encourage speech or working through simple mathematics or anything that is below the level of the father but he does it for the benefit of the child. Also the father might give gifts and support from a distance so the child can progress in their own way (hopefully taking on board the discipline of the father and the example of the son).

I hope this was interesting, Mad Cat
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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