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wachemba  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote wachemba Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 7:03am
Honestly speaking i have been reading, through the number of replies given on the issue of the Trinity, but i want to say it here, that its is not Biblical, en thats why its not understood. There is no verse in the Bible, that clearly points, to that, but what is clear is that some people sat down en accepted to declare the Trinity. The Bible, clearly states what has been revealed is for us an our children and secrets are for God.


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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 7:10am
Originally posted by wachemba

Honestly speaking i have been reading, through the number of replies given on the issue of the Trinity, but i want to say it here, that its is not Biblical, en thats why its not understood. There is no verse in the Bible, that clearly points, to that, but what is clear is that some people sat down en accepted to declare the Trinity. The Bible, clearly states what has been revealed is for us an our children and secrets are for God.


 
 
  Your welcome to your opinion... However the thread wasn't asking whether it was biblical... thats a separate issue entirely.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 7:24am
Ouch My eyes hurt !
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 11:46am
Originally posted by scrugnut

That brings up, at least to me, the idea of a very petty god who can forgive murder, rape, any number of things; but not the sin of associating partners with him...but i am using a very human perspective (which is what we all employ) to my understanding of such things; and i am not at all godlike.
I am happy to see that you consider me your friend...as i do you.
 
Friend scrug, it is not that Allah cannot forgive the sin of associating partners with Him-- he can and does forgive that sin IF the sinner repents from it.
 
Likewise, He doesn't forgive any other sin unless the sinner repents from it. (Though He may forgive someone who is ignorant of having committed some certain sin, if such a case exists)
 
As you and others here have observed, the trinity is a flawed analogy, even as every analogy trying to illustrate any validity to the trinity theory is flawed.
 
 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by scrugnut

That brings up, at least to me, the idea of a very petty god who can forgive murder, rape, any number of things; but not the sin of associating partners with him...but i am using a very human perspective (which is what we all employ) to my understanding of such things; and i am not at all godlike.
I am happy to see that you consider me your friend...as i do you.
 
Friend scrug, it is not that Allah cannot forgive the sin of associating partners with Him-- he can and does forgive that sin IF the sinner repents from it.
 
Likewise, He doesn't forgive any other sin unless the sinner repents from it. (Though He may forgive someone who is ignorant of having committed some certain sin, if such a case exists)
 
As you and others here have observed, the trinity is a flawed analogy, even as every analogy trying to illustrate any validity to the trinity theory is flawed.
 
 
 
Flawed if reasoned through human logic, hence why the Blessed Trinity is beyond human comprehension and will remain a mystery.
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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struggle  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by wachemba

Honestly speaking i have been reading, through the number of replies given on the issue of the Trinity, but i want to say it here, that its is not Biblical, en thats why its not understood. There is no verse in the Bible, that clearly points, to that, but what is clear is that some people sat down en accepted to declare the Trinity. The Bible, clearly states what has been revealed is for us an our children and secrets are for God.


 
The human trinity concept should not at all truely be empharsize. Even though the concept is associate with the christians. Much of the agruement should be, is Jesus part of God. That clearly is rejected by the muslims even through scripture, we know that. Be respectful to the replies, and Most of all lets be on topic. Cause its sound silly with the circles of agruments in this forum...
 
 
EYE FOR EYE
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:26pm
All of these analogies are flawed away from the concept of trinity in that they portray three components comprising one thing:
 

one lead + one bit of wood + one coat of paint can = one pencil

Father (God), Brother (Jesus) and Uncle (Holy Spirit).

a physical body, a mind, and a spirit. All are seperate and distinct from each other, yet all make up one whole.

a cube is made up of six sides, six squares = one cube

the Father is the thinker, the Spirit is the act of thinking while the Son is the thought

The Father, Son, and Spirit however, according to Trinity as defined by the Athanasian Creed, are not components OF God but each in and of themselves ARE God:
 

Originally posted by Athanasian Creed

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God; and yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord; and yet they are not three Lords but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

So the idea of Father, Son, and Spirit being components of God is denied by the AC.
 
I realize that some Christians hold a view of subordination within the Trinity, but that also is denied by the AC:
 

Originally posted by AC

And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

As far as I know the best "working definition" of the Trinity among Christians is contained in the AC, and that definition is clearly illogical even according to the analogies posted here by people who believe in the Trinity!
 
There may be better "working definitions" of the trinity concept among Christians, however, they are still clearly in contrast to the thoughts of Jesus, that the Father is the ONLY true God, and that the Father is "my God and your God".
 
Demanding a belief in Trinity for anyone hoping to be saved is where Christianity historically departed from Truth, and for most part, that is also where most forms of Christianity ultimately depart from Truth still to this day.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 12:58pm
 
 Eldon ... My God and your God would have us going back to Phillipians and as many other verses such as "I and the Father are One" etc. I've seen the arguments that refute even the latter, and they themselves are flawed arguments.
 
 The Trinity consists of three distinct individuals yes... But being co-eternal and of the same divine nature. They embody the essence of each other. There is no imbalance nor ever will be.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 2:36pm
 
 Futher i find it strange how Muslims still apply the logic that in Genesis God said "let US make man in our ....   then say the use of "US" is a royal usage.
 
 Yet no-where else in the Bible is this "Royal US " or "WE" for that matter used when God spoke.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 Futher i find it strange how Muslims still apply the logic that in Genesis God said "let US make man in our ....   then say the use of "US" is a royal usage.
 
 Yet no-where else in the Bible is this "Royal US " or "WE" for that matter used when God spoke.


I'm surprised that you have said this. Look at the footnote in the NIV translation of the Bible to Genesis 1:1 ["In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth"] and you will see that the word for God "Elohim", a plural word, is used for God, to denote respect or the "Royal We'.

The Royal plural is very common in semitic languages. It does not mean more than one.
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 2:47pm
Ok a Little re-rephrasing .

Is it even possible to define it ?


As I still see it is possible to define it in two diff ways like One persons three attributes or 3 people with one common attribute.

 But the problem arises when you try to combine the two.
 You cant have One person who is actually 3 different indiviuals at the same time is a single person who yet at the same time can be thought of as 3 diff indiviuals something like a split personality .....................................and I am lost for words .And I hav'nt even scratched the surface yet

 I think such a major component sould be explainable in Human Terms.And so should any component of anything .

We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by desertdude

Ok a Little re-rephrasing .

Is it even possible to define it ?


As I still see it is possible to define it in two diff ways like One persons three attributes or 3 people with one common attribute.

 But the problem arises when you try to combine the two.
 You cant have One person who is actually 3 different indiviuals at the same time is a single person who yet at the same time can be thought of as 3 diff indiviuals something like a split personality .....................................and I am lost for words .And I hav'nt even scratched the surface yet

 I think such a major component sould be explainable in Human Terms.And so should any component of anything .

 
 DD... i know what your saying...
  But If you can separate God from every other thing for a sec... I hate to use this as any kind of analogy but if you have a company, which has three directors... the company is God, the directors are the bosses. But when relating this to God, it seemsa  harsh way of putting it.. But thats why i'm saying.. the concept is only perfect in God, with The Three ... They are perfect in that there is no imbalance where one could go off and start his own separate heaven and creation etc etc etc.. or by any other stretch of a splitting of any sort in by which 3 separate Gods, as then it would never have been God, and never Divine. ... I'm admit its not an easy idea to swallow.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 5:40pm
 Ok I'm trying to understand what ur saying .I appriciate the harsh analogy ,but The three Bosses are just that Bosses each a sperate entity .Which own and run The God Company .The GC is not really a seprate entity or even a thing .Its just what the three bosses call their Bussiness.

 Ok lemme ask a EVEN simpler question Is there One God or there are three Gods ?
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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LtTony  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2008 at 7:20pm
 
One.  Definitely one.
 
I appreciate your desire to keep it simple as possible.
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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