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InterReligious Dialogue
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amoxoxoma  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote amoxoxoma Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 3:51am
Traveller, many christians have tried to explain theologically what Jesus meant when he said:
 
He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
 
and
 
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
 
The Trinity, though not explicit in the New Testament, is implicit in the very words of Jesus.
 
How do you understand those words of Jesus? Or, do you not believe he said those things and referred to himself that way?
The more deeply we are our true selves, the less self is in us.
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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 7:35am

Here is a simple question back.

If Paul or anyone else in the early days did corrupt the teachings of Jesus, as so many here are quick to say, why does Jesus not say ‘I am God’ or why is the Trinity not declared more clearly if that was the corrupter’s purpose?
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 9:08am
Are there three Gods or ONE God?
 
Originally posted by LtTony

 
One.  Definitely one.
 
I appreciate your desire to keep it simple as possible.
 
Originally posted by Damo

 I'll admit its not an easy idea to swallow.
 
 
I think those two sentiments are exactly what the Most High is looking for from people of Faith concerning the trinity controversy.
 
The Athanasian Creed however, demands that one MUST believe in the Trinity as stated within the Creed in order to be saved. While I was still a Christian I realized that I had to divorce myself from what is contained in the Creed and cease to make it a part of my relationship towards unbelievers, even though the Creed has been part of Christianity for ~1500 years.
 
But as I strove to do just that, I found myself being divorced from fellowship with other Christians, because of my rejection of the AC!
 
Our Maker wants us to understand Him as He is, ONE who is THE Most High.
 
Jesus is not THE Most High, yet the AC demands we recognize him and the Holy Spirit as "co-equal" with the Father.
 
Demanding that belief is not only not simple, and not easy to swallow, it is unjust. I hope more Christians will realize that.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 9:14am
Originally posted by amoxoxoma

Traveller, many christians have tried to explain theologically what Jesus meant when he said:
 
He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
 
and
 
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
 
The Trinity, though not explicit in the New Testament, is implicit in the very words of Jesus.
 
How do you understand those words of Jesus? Or, do you not believe he said those things and referred to himself that way?
 
The very words of Jesus include his words addressing the Father as "the ONLY true God" and his words declaring that the Father is "my God and your God".
 
Though your quotes from John 14 may fit the trinity schema, his words in John 17:3 and John 20:17 definitely do not fit the trinity schema.
 
Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and that includes all the words just spoke, not just the ones that fit into the trinitarian tradition.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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struggle  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote struggle Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 11:01am
.....
EYE FOR EYE
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Nura  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Mad Cat

Here is a simple question back.

If Paul or anyone else in the early days did corrupt the teachings of Jesus, as so many here are quick to say, why does Jesus not say ‘I am God’ or why is the Trinity not declared more clearly if that was the corrupter’s purpose?
 
We don't know if Jesus' teaching were corrupted with porpouse. Maybe not, but those who tried to build a christian philosophy and theology was influenced by other sources.
If the Trinity is true, why hasn't Jesus explained it without ambiguity? And why have Christians groups quarreled about it fro more than 400 years? And why did the "winners" felt the need to persecute the others, for example the followers of Arius?
 
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 11:33am
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by amoxoxoma

Traveller, many christians have tried to explain theologically what Jesus meant when he said:
 
He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?
 
and
 
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
 
The Trinity, though not explicit in the New Testament, is implicit in the very words of Jesus.
 
How do you understand those words of Jesus? Or, do you not believe he said those things and referred to himself that way?
 
The very words of Jesus include his words addressing the Father as "the ONLY true God" and his words declaring that the Father is "my God and your God".
 
Though your quotes from John 14 may fit the trinity schema, his words in John 17:3 and John 20:17 definitely do not fit the trinity schema.
 
Man lives by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of God, and that includes all the words just spoke, not just the ones that fit into the trinitarian tradition.
 
 
 
Eldon... you continue to use the limited few verses which suit your argument while leaving out the many many others which completely contradict it. Jesus in relating to the Father was relating to him from a human perspective having "emptied himself" and taken the form of a servant. Jesus was with humanity for but a blink of an eye in the grand scale of things. This is why it was more important to relate to people the way He did, as Philippians 2, 5-9, makes clear people just wouldn't be able to grasp equality with God.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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katy098  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote katy098 Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:13pm
Hamayoun:
"If what you are saying is the case, does that not imply that God wants us to believe in something beyond our rationale?  And if so, how can this be fair?"

So if you are able to talk to him face to face and if he tells you himself that the Trinity is true will you then reply him, "How could you expect me to believe in this irrational concept, this is unfair!"

God is who he is- we can not expect him to modify himself or limit himself or we limit what he wants to reveal to us, just because we consider it unfair.

Actually, one question, how can a women who is a Virgin give birth to a child? And I want a rational answer, something that can be proven by science, so no "By God's power" or something similar.

Traveller:
"If we cannot explain God, who created us, making us a father, mother, son or daughter, then how can we say God has a son? By saying God has a son, aren't we appying the same law by which He creates, to Him?"

I hope you don't think that because we call Jesus, God the Son, it means the Father and relations with some women and gave birth to a son
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:23pm
Salam

Katy, have you never heard of Parthenogenesis?

I simply cannot fathom that God will throw anyone into hell because that person was told to believe something contrary to his internal nature, and to what he sees with eyes, and hears with his ears.  God cannot be that unjust.  After all, God is our creator and He knows what our brains are capable of encompassing.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:24pm
Salam

I hope you don't think that because we call Jesus, God the Son, it means the Father and relations with some women and gave birth to a son

Katy, does not the NT say that God love the world so much, he sent down his only begotten son?
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

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Mad Cat  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Mad Cat Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 5:39pm

Originally posted by Nura

   We don't know if Jesus' teaching were corrupted with porpouse.

I think more should be known before such claims are brought forwards. It seems unfair to make such a claim without knowing who, when, why, how and where.

Originally posted by Nura

   If the Trinity is true, why hasn't Jesus explained it without ambiguity?

It depends a lot on what exactly you have in mind when you say this. IMO there are very good reasons Jesus didn’t just say ‘I am God’.

Originally posted by Nura

   And why have Christians groups quarreled about it fro more than 400 years? And why did the "winners" felt the need to persecute the others, for example the followers of Arius?

Quarrels occur when things stop being about God and start being about power and this is not limited to Christianity. As for persecuting, if you can find any teaching of Jesus where He permits persecution of non-believer in any way I would like to see it. If you cannot, be sure that these persecutors were working in direct contradiction to Jesus’ teachings.
Test everything. Hold on to the good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by katy098

Actually, one question, how can a women who is a Virgin give birth to a child? And I want a rational answer, something that can be proven by science, so no "By God's power" or something similar.
 
That is not the same argument. A totally different field. We are talking abt ONE God, not what God wills. For whatever He wills, He just say "Be" and it will be.
 
You said so it's impossible to explain how God is one and yet three. That makes it irrational. And in order to believe in the christians doctrine, one has to be irrational. Is that how God expect of us?
 

I hope you don't think that because we call Jesus, God the Son, it means the Father and relations with some women and gave birth to a son
 
Please explain begotten son, not made.
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by amoxoxoma

He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'?  
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
How do you understand those words of Jesus? Or, do you not believe he said those things and referred to himself that way?
 
Hi Amox.
 
Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said something similar.
 
"I am Ahmad, without the m"
 
Ahmad without the letter M makes it Ahad, which means One, essentially God. I'm not going into this. Just to say that if Jesus had said the above, I understand what he meant.
 
This is my saying. "He who has seen a bird flying, has seen God." But that does not make the bird God.
 
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2008 at 11:37pm
It seems that the "1 cube = 6 squares" analogy did not particularly help anyone here...?  
 
Originally posted by traveller

You said so it's impossible to explain how God is one and yet three. That makes it irrational. And in order to believe in the christians doctrine, one has to be irrational. Is that how God expect of us?
 
As I said earlier: have you ever looked at quantum physics? (I defy anyone to call that branch of science "rational"!)
 
 Please explain begotten son, not made.
 
What is made is something of a different kind than that which makes it: birds make nests, beavers make dams, people make furniture, buildings, clothes, art, &tc.
 
What is begotten is of the same kind as that which begets it: birds beget birds, beavers beget beavers, humans beget humans.
 
This is not about a physical act of procreation, it is about the dynamics of interpersonal relationship (a father protects, supports and cares for his son; a son looks up to and respects his father) and the "genetics" of family resemblance (a son "looks like" his father: Jesus shares his father's traits- holiness, compassion...)
 
(most of the above arguments are taken from C.S. Lewis, by the way.)
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