Hall of FameHall of Fame  Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp  chatChat
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
InterReligious Dialogue
 Whyislam.org Forums : General : InterReligious Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: A Simple Question Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 8 Next >>
Author Message
eldon  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Location: United States
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 312
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 9:41am
Eldon: This very day an ongoing miracle is taking place in the name of Allah as millions if not billions of people bow themselves in prayer saying Bismillah (in the name of Allah). 
 
Damo : No dis-respect, but in what way does this constitute a mirracle ?
 
Do you think those millions are all just conspiring to pray together every day, without the Wonderful Influence of Allah Most High, inspiring them to do so?   It's an ongoing evidence of His miraculous work in our lives that we actively worship Him.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

Islam">Islam
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 10:38am
Originally posted by eldon

Do you think those millions are all just conspiring to pray together every day, without the Wonderful Influence of Allah Most High, inspiring them to do so?   It's an ongoing evidence of His miraculous work in our lives that we actively worship Him.
 
In adhering to a requirement of faith whether it be observed by 100 people, or a billion people is a compliment to the people of that faith. Though not miraculous by any means.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 11:02am
Originally posted by sbananamarie11

I've never been able to understand the idea of 3 being one.  If that were true then since we are made in God's image... shouldn't we be 3 split personalities also? The idea of the Trinity was never introduced until long after Christ's death and is never once mentioned in the bible.

Emperor Constantine on May 20, 325 AD. called for a meeting of his 318 Bishops at Nicea. At this council meeting the Trinity-Theory was made the Official Doctrine of the Catholic Church, later in 381 AD. at the Council of Constantinople the Catholic Church reconfirmed the State Official doctrine of the Trinity, and made it more complete.

 
 The council of Nicea was in reality by means of decree, setting down once and for all that which was already held as common knowledge by the heirarchy of the Church from the Early church fathers such as Ireneus, Polycarp and others onwards, so as to set clear what was already known and understood, and prevent the rot if you like of Gnosticism getting a foothold in spreading heresey by taking advantage of anything which could be seized apon as ambiguous
 
 The concept of the Blessed Trinity was held long before 325... the earliest of Christian writings, see the The Huleatt Manuscript 50 AD, the Letter of Barnabas 74 AD  (not to be confused with the gospel of barnabus forgery ),Hermas 80 AD, Aristides 140 AD, Justin Martyr 150 AD. There's plenty more and i'll list more if you wish... The Trinity as a word is not used in the Bible, but is non the less there in black and white in accounting all three members as God.
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 11:11am
Originally posted by Yousef1

If a person had lived his entire life in an isolated and totally un-inhabited forest, would this person reach the conclusion that:

"My Creator is One" OR would he say "My Creator is T.H.R.E.E in one"???
 

Only the truth comes naturally to human instinct, logic, and intellect.

 

Pure Monotheism is innately recognized within man's natural instinct and it stands out clearly and independently.

 

Pure Monotheism can never be twisted, re-defined, diluted, or stretched in order to accomodate multiple 'god-heads' or multiple divine personas, or multiple characters to be sharing together in divinity.
 
Throughout history, The ONE God sent many honorable human Messengers to convey the single consistent truth to the rest of humanity:
 
Noah, Solomn, David, Abraham, Isaac, Ismail, Jacob, Yousef, Aaron, Moses, Jesus, and finally, Muhammad (peace be upon them all); All of these noble human Messengers conveyed one single pure consistent Message:
 

God is ONE and ALONE worthy of worship.  Nothing and Nobody shares in the divinity of the One and Only God.

 
That was the Pure Monotheistic message that was repeatedly addressed to the conscience of mankind, because it's the innate truth that the human instinct naturally recognizes.
 
 
 
 But man didn't live in isolation, God over time allowed man to come to know more about His nature over many generations.
 
 God is One , and alone worthy of worship.. Christians do not dispute that, and never have. But God is , if you like one Body of three distinct Individuals. Each of the same Divine essence and nature making them as One , and not as Three Gods, since before time began.  
 
 
150 AD Justin Martyr: "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein"
 
  
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Traveller  
Graduate
Graduate

Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2279
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 9:44pm
Damo. You said, "God over time allowed man to come to know more about His nature over many generations"
 
Would that be fair to the people of earlier generations, that they never come to know God coz God only revealed His true nature to the later generations?
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 10:29pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Damo. You said, "God over time allowed man to come to know more about His nature over many generations"
 
Would that be fair to the people of earlier generations, that they never come to know God coz God only revealed His true nature to the later generations?
 
 
 
 Its reality .. nothing to do with whats fair or whatever. For example many of the patriarchs of the OT where given prophesy by God... much of that prophesy would not be fulfilled within their lifetime or perhaps even be fully understood by the prophets themselves until some generations later.
 I don't thik this is any different. God to men in those early days is no different in nature to the God understood by Christians today, in that He is all powerfull, created all that is seen and unseen, creator of Heaven and Earth. Beside him there are no gods.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Traveller  
Graduate
Graduate

Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 2279
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 12:27am
God to men in those early days is no different in nature to the God understood by Christians today
 
Surely it is. God in the early days is just 1 God. Christians now say God is 1 God but in three different forms. Surely that is a major difference in nature.
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
eldon  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Location: United States
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 312
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 9:28am
Originally posted by Damo

150 AD Justin Martyr: "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein"
 
Justin Martyr's belief is unacceptable according to the Athanasian Creed, compiled ~300 years afterwards. He is describing a heirarchy under the True God, not a "co-equal trinity within God".
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

Islam">Islam
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 10:45am
Originally posted by Traveller

God to men in those early days is no different in nature to the God understood by Christians today
 
Surely it is. God in the early days is just 1 God. Christians now say God is 1 God but in three different forms. Surely that is a major difference in nature.
 
 
 
 God in Genesis 1:1 "B’raishees buruh Elohim ais hashomayim v’ais hueretz"
Translates literaly as ""In the beginning God(s) created the heavens and the earth." Elohim is the plural form meaning God's.
 
 Hosea 1:7 God speaks from the 1st person perspective and says :And I will have mercy on the house of Juda, and I will save them by the Lord their God:
 
 I could provide further examples if need be.
 
 
Originally posted by eldon

Originally posted by Damo

150 AD Justin Martyr: "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein"
 
Justin Martyr's belief is unacceptable according to the Athanasian Creed, compiled ~300 years afterwards. He is describing a heirarchy under the True God, not a "co-equal trinity within God".
 
 Eldon, the Nicean Creed hold that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Blessed Trinity, and that the Holy Spirit is the Third. All glory and honour emanate through the Son and the Spirit from the Father.
 
  But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe. Whence also the Spirit of prophecy rebukes them, and says, "Israel doth not know Me, my people have not understood Me." And again, Jesus, as we have already shown, while He was with them, said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son but the Father, and those to whom the Son will reveal Him." The Jews, accordingly, being throughout of opinion that it was the Father of the universe who spake to Moses, though He who spake to him was indeed the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, are justly charged, both by the Spirit of prophecy and by Christ Himself, with knowing neither the Father nor the Son. For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin, according to the counsel of the Father, for the salvation of those who believe on Him, He endured both to be set at nought and to suffer, that by dying and rising again He might conquer death. And that which was said out of the bush to Moses, "I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, and the God of your fathers," this signified that they, even though dead, are let in existence, and are men belonging to Christ Himself. For they were the first of all men to busy themselves in the search after God; Abraham being the father of Isaac, and Isaac of Jacob, as Moses wrote."
Justin Martyr
 
 Much of what is said above also agrees with what i said in the other thread regarding the Angel of the Lord as Jesus pre-incarnate
 
The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter,
Justin Martyr:
 
   
 
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
eldon  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Location: United States
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 312
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 
 
 The concept of the Blessed Trinity was held long before 325... the earliest of Christian writings, see the The Huleatt Manuscript 50 AD, the Letter of Barnabas 74 AD  (not to be confused with the gospel of barnabus forgery ),Hermas 80 AD, Aristides 140 AD, Justin Martyr 150 AD. There's plenty more and i'll list more if you wish... The Trinity as a word is not used in the Bible, but is non the less there in black and white in accounting all three members as God.
 
 
 
 
  • 50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).

First, the date of this "manuscript" is generally agreed upon as circa 200AD, not 50AD.
 
Secondly, there are only three small fragments to be examined, the translation of which as alleged posted above is practically impossible. See the link for a picture of the actual fragments:
 
 
  • 74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).

That says nothing about a co-equal trinity, but only affirms pre-existence of the Word.
 
  • 80 AD Hermas "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12).

again, no co-equal trinity there.
 
 
  • 140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).

 Acknowledging God IN the Son and Holy Spirit is a far cry from acknowledging God AS the Son and Holy Spirit. Trinitarian dogma is a later corruption of the writings of the Apostles of Jesus, there is nothing in his words demanding belief in a co-equal Trinity, but rather his words contradict such a demand.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

Islam">Islam
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Janet Waters  
Mureed
Mureed
Avatar
Location: United States
Religion: Christian(Mormon)
Posts: 3617
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by desertdude

 Can any one In simple an layman terms ,give me a worldy example of the trinity . The 3 = 1 and 1 = 3 .An example that would stand its ground under scrunity .I 've heard the Water theory ,The Egg theory ,The Father ,Husband and son theory ,Jesus chaniging ,wardrobe theory and quite a few others.But the can be very easily deconstructed

 I mean is all gods honest truth I cannot seem to grasp the idea of the trinity of 3 being 1 and vice versa .Just like my friend scruggy cannot grasp the idea of a god .I cannot grasp the theory of the trinity .

PS: As some will mostly claim (not naming names here )as soon as this goes up .NO this is not what u call a loaded question.



From my understanding about why there was a need to coin the Trinity theory....  Is to combine two supposed "opposing" classifications of God:

(1)  Godhead Doctrine:  Trying to understand how Eloheim (which is a plural) can yet be "one" at the same time.

(2)  Monotheism theory:  Devise a way that a plural understanding about God can fit into the the theory about what constitutes "monotheism."


Some Christians would say that God has to be both.  Yet other people would have to pick one way and reject the other.....saying it is not possible to be both at the same time.

But notice.....that the Trinity and Monotheism are both theories and not doctrine.  So we are then forced to go back and study what the Godhead doctrine is or is not.




No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 4:39pm
  • 50 AD The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus'] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: 'Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me.] . . . Then one of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priest and said, 'What will you give me for my work?' [Matt. 26:7-15]" (Huleatt fragments 1-3).

Eldon :First, the date of this "manuscript" is generally agreed upon as circa 200AD, not 50AD.
 
Secondly, there are only three small fragments to be examined, the translation of which as alleged posted above is practically impossible. See the link for a picture of the actual fragments:
 
 
 Damo:  Circa 200 AD generally agreed apon ? Can you show evidence of this ?
Be it so we don't agree on this one, i can live with that .
 
 
  • 74 AD The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).

 Eldon: That says nothing about a co-equal trinity, but only affirms pre-existence of the Word.
 
 Damo: , Jesus is recognised as Lord of ALL the world, to who God said "let US make man after OUR image and after OUR likeness. Muslims certainly do not contend Jesus is Lord of all the world.
 
  • 80 AD Hermas "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12).

Eldon: again, no co-equal trinity there.
 
 Damo: Not in this verse, but what this verse does show is that the point you made regarding a pre-existence of all people prior to creation and that of these people Jesus was created also is false according to this.
 
  • 140 AD Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).

 Eldon: Acknowledging God IN the Son and Holy Spirit is a far cry from acknowledging God AS the Son and Holy Spirit. Trinitarian dogma is a later corruption of the writings of the Apostles of Jesus, there is nothing in his words demanding belief in a co-equal Trinity, but rather his words contradict such a demand.
 
 Damo: Eldon this verse testifies to the Holy Spirit as a separate entity.
  But what of :
 "For they who affirm that the Son is the Father, are proved neither to have become acquainted with the Father, nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." 
 
 Or "The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter,"  <This is a clearly illustrative of the Trinity.
 
 Or  "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
 
Or  "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Tatian Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]).

 
Or  "[T]o Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth" (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1).

 "Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Hippolytus Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]).
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
eldon  
Sophmore Member
Sophmore Member

Location: United States
Religion: Islam(Muslim)
Posts: 312
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 9:02am
Damo, all those quotes are further examples of the contrast between John 20:17 versus John 20:28
 
(Jesus said the Father is his God and our God, whereas Thomas is implied to profess that Jesus is his God.)
 
I believe Jesus was right and Thomas was misinterpreted. There is no doubt that most Christians through the ages have followed after Thomas' exclamation rather than what Jesus said concerning this issue.
 
A "co-equal trinity" schema rules out the idea of one member calling another "my God"
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

Islam">Islam
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
Damo808  
Mureed
Mureed

Religion: Christian(Catholic)
Posts: 4269
Forum Rating: 0
Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 12:05pm
 
Eldon :
Damo, all those quotes are further examples of the contrast between John 20:17 versus John 20:28
 
(Jesus said the Father is his God and our God, whereas Thomas is implied to profess that Jesus is his God.)
 
I believe Jesus was right and Thomas was misinterpreted. There is no doubt that most Christians through the ages have followed after Thomas' exclamation rather than what Jesus said concerning this issue.
 
  
A "co-equal trinity" schema rules out the idea of one member calling another "my God"
 
 
 
Damo:
Eldon.... As has been explained... Equality with God the Father could not be grasped in Philippians, 2.5-9 (which you call a clumsy translation).
 
 Which explains why "my God" was used, the aim was not to confuse those who could not grasp His equality, but rather that they maintain the worship of the one True God. Ignorance of His status at that time Jesus willingly overlooked.
 
 You believe Thomas was mis-interpreted, but thats you opinion because to believe otherwise negates Islam. It also doen't make sense why Jesus if Thomas did say what he did Jesus wouldn't have rebuked him. But aside from this there are as many other verses as have been pointed out numerously which can only be equated with God when Jesus spoke.
 
 Eitherway.. i think the quotes provided demonstrate that the assertion that Jesus as God only came about at the Council of Nicea in 325 is nonesense.
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
No Guest-Voting   IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 8 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums version 8.03
Copyright ©2001-2006 Web Wiz Guide
Disclaimer
The opinions expressed by members of the Whyislam Forum do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of the Whyislam Team, or any of its subsidiaries, or parent organizations.