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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 8:57am
It has never been true and never will be true that a person is equal to -- or considers himself equal to-- the One he calls "my God".
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:21am
"It has never been true and never will be true that a person is equal to -- or considers himself equal to-- the One he calls "my God". "
 
 
   I think its safe to say Eldon... that your going to stick to that verse, against context, as well as against the better judgement of the apostals themselves and the apostals of the apostals i.e the early church fathers. Your welcome to your opinion, however i can't help thinking the early church fathers's understanding is vastly superior to yours.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:41am
John 17:3 and 20:17 are two very strong verses which directly address the question of whether or not Jesus is God. Spoken by Jesus himself, there are no other verses in the whole Bible comparable to them concerning the subject of the relationship between God and Jesus.
 
Christians should never have de-emphasized those verses in favor of less authoritative scriptural implications to construct the image of tri-unity.
 
Thankfully, though, Allah sent the Quran to affirm the truth of the God Jesus worshipped and free him from erroneous traditons of men.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Giovanni  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 10:40am
Originally posted by eldon

John 17:3 and 20:17 are two very strong verses which directly address the question of whether or not Jesus is God. Spoken by Jesus himself, there are no other verses in the whole Bible comparable to them concerning the subject of the relationship between God and Jesus.
 
Christians should never have de-emphasized those verses in favor of less authoritative scriptural implications to construct the image of tri-unity.
 
Thankfully, though, Allah sent the Quran to affirm the truth of the God Jesus worshipped and free him from erroneous traditons of men.


  I am going to be blunt.
You keep bringing up the Qu'ran to confirm your truth.  How do you know the Qu'oran is the truth.  Who was with Muhammed to confirm the message he got and who he got it from.  No witnesses.  Most if not all trials would be thrown out of court if there are no material witnesses to confirm the case.

May the Love of God be With you.
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 11:00am
Originally posted by Giovanni

Originally posted by eldon

John 17:3 and 20:17 are two very strong verses which directly address the question of whether or not Jesus is God. Spoken by Jesus himself, there are no other verses in the whole Bible comparable to them concerning the subject of the relationship between God and Jesus.
 
Christians should never have de-emphasized those verses in favor of less authoritative scriptural implications to construct the image of tri-unity.
 
Thankfully, though, Allah sent the Quran to affirm the truth of the God Jesus worshipped and free him from erroneous traditons of men.


  I am going to be blunt.
You keep bringing up the Qu'ran to confirm your truth.  How do you know the Qu'oran is the truth.  Who was with Muhammed to confirm the message he got and who he got it from.  No witnesses.  Most if not all trials would be thrown out of court if there are no material witnesses to confirm the case.



Even if Eldon brought witnesses, historical reports surrounding the Qur'an and Muhammad's life as it was in the process of being sent to him, I doubt you would be swayed.

The issue, in my view, is the text itself. I don't know if you have ever read any of the Qur'an at all, but please do. Not because you want to convert, but rather to understand the Muslim viewpoint and its basis.

Eldon, even as a Muslim, can still find reference to the Bible, because he wants to communicate with Christians. He has to speak to them in their language. It doesn't mean you will accept what he's saying, but at least you can understand where he's coming from. Please try the same with regards to the Qur'an itself.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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Giovanni  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Giovanni Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 11:46am
Originally posted by waheed1

Originally posted by Giovanni

Originally posted by eldon

John 17:3 and 20:17 are two very strong verses which directly address the question of whether or not Jesus is God. Spoken by Jesus himself, there are no other verses in the whole Bible comparable to them concerning the subject of the relationship between God and Jesus.
 
Christians should never have de-emphasized those verses in favor of less authoritative scriptural implications to construct the image of tri-unity.
 
Thankfully, though, Allah sent the Quran to affirm the truth of the God Jesus worshipped and free him from erroneous traditons of men.


  I am going to be blunt.
You keep bringing up the Qu'ran to confirm your truth.  How do you know the Qu'oran is the truth.  Who was with Muhammed to confirm the message he got and who he got it from.  No witnesses.  Most if not all trials would be thrown out of court if there are no material witnesses to confirm the case.



Even if Eldon brought witnesses, historical reports surrounding the Qur'an and Muhammad's life as it was in the process of being sent to him, I doubt you would be swayed.

The issue, in my view, is the text itself. I don't know if you have ever read any of the Qur'an at all, but please do. Not because you want to convert, but rather to understand the Muslim viewpoint and its basis.

Eldon, even as a Muslim, can still find reference to the Bible, because he wants to communicate with Christians. He has to speak to them in their language. It doesn't mean you will accept what he's saying, but at least you can understand where he's coming from. Please try the same with regards to the Qur'an itself.

Regards,
S.Waheed


  Neither eldon or anyone else now or ever can without  proof say the Qu'ran is the truth.  
  If I have a question about Islam, I would receive the answer with the understanding that such is your belief and move on, NOT TELL YOU, YOU ARE WRONG.  That is why at times I respond as I do.
  Eldon and any other Muslim can't tell me the Qu'ran affirms the truth about Jesus, and you cannot say he is speaking to them (me) in my language telling me what I believe is wrong.  Then just prohibit all Christians from this forum and just tell each other how great you all are with such a great religion where every one else is misled and going to hell and you are the only ones with the truth.

May the Love of God be With you.
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 12:50pm
I can see your point, but at the same time everyone thinks their religion is the correct one, so that's unavoidable.

There are many people who were Christians prior to their acceptance of Islam. Through their own initiatives and knowledge, they have decided that the Qur'an is from God. I think that during the course of a conversation, it would basically come out that such and such, etc..

If I joined a catholic forum, and entered into conversations there, they would say I am wrong for such and such belief. That's again, simply unavoidable.

Whether I believe what I am told there would be another issue alltogether. The same here. Eldon tells you things about the Bible, I tell you things, other people say things. You can accept it as true or dismiss it.

FYI, personally i don't believe in telling people their religion is wrong, i do believe in dialogue, and that facts, or atleast perceptions, come out of such discussions, and that's a good thing.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by eldon

John 17:3 and 20:17 are two very strong verses which directly address the question of whether or not Jesus is God. Spoken by Jesus himself, there are no other verses in the whole Bible comparable to them concerning the subject of the relationship between God and Jesus.
 
Christians should never have de-emphasized those verses in favor of less authoritative scriptural implications to construct the image of tri-unity.
 
Thankfully, though, Allah sent the Quran to affirm the truth of the God Jesus worshipped and free him from erroneous traditons of men.
 
 Christian don't "de-emphasize" they take the whole of scripture instead of two verses ( taken out of context ) to make their decisions.
 
 You suggest erroneously that tradition and core beliefs passed on by the apostals to their apostals became completey scewed within a few decades of Christ's passing going by what the earlierst of Christian writters attest to regarding Jesus nature. Which begs the question.. For all the prohpesy concerning the coming of the Messiah in the OT, was the message He brough to be fruitful only to one or two generations after His appearing with the consecutive app 500 centuries passing in error until Mohammud. Seems to me if this is the case, the Messianic prophesy was very much over exagerated as it held significance to but a few, for so long to the detriment of the souls of as many generations.
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by Damo808

 God in Genesis 1:1 "B’raishees buruh Elohim ais hashomayim v’ais hueretz"
Translates literaly as ""In the beginning God(s) created the heavens and the earth." Elohim is the plural form meaning God's.
 
 
Does it say which god created what?
 
If there are more than 1 creator, don't they have to get together and coordinate?
 
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Originally posted by Damo808

 God in Genesis 1:1 "B’raishees buruh Elohim ais hashomayim v’ais hueretz"
Translates literaly as ""In the beginning God(s) created the heavens and the earth." Elohim is the plural form meaning God's.
 
 
Does it say which god created what?
 
If there are more than 1 creator, don't they have to get together and coordinate?
 
 
 
 
 It doesn't work that way Trav. They are as One. How the earth came into being litteraly was by His Word "Let there Be"
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 10:48pm
I'm confused Damo. Seriously.
 
I can't, for the life of me imagine how it is for 3 different beings to come together as one and said, "Let there Be".
 
How you can accept it is something that is beyond me too.
 
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by Traveller

I'm confused Damo. Seriously.
 
I can't, for the life of me imagine how it is for 3 different beings to come together as one and said, "Let there Be".
 
How you can accept it is something that is beyond me too.
 
 
 
 Traveller.. i appreciate  how contradictory and illogical the concept may appear . What i mention concerning the Trinity is as far as even i a Christian can elaborate on it. The Triune God is incomprehendable to man but that in itself though  doesn't make it an impossibility.. especially when God cannot be grasped by comparrison to anything else we base logic upon.
 
 Irenaeus replies to the Gnostics, who held that the world was created by a demiurge other than the supreme God, by affirming that God is the one Creator, and that He made all things by His Word and His Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 8:06am
Originally posted by Giovanni

Originally posted by eldon

John 17:3 and 20:17 are two very strong verses which directly address the question of whether or not Jesus is God. Spoken by Jesus himself, there are no other verses in the whole Bible comparable to them concerning the subject of the relationship between God and Jesus.
 
Christians should never have de-emphasized those verses in favor of less authoritative scriptural implications to construct the image of tri-unity.
 
Thankfully, though, Allah sent the Quran to affirm the truth of the God Jesus worshipped and free him from erroneous traditons of men.


  I am going to be blunt.
You keep bringing up the Qu'ran to confirm your truth.  How do you know the Qu'oran is the truth.  Who was with Muhammed to confirm the message he got and who he got it from.  No witnesses.  Most if not all trials would be thrown out of court if there are no material witnesses to confirm the case.

 
I know the Quran is the Truth because it told me as a "person of the Gospel" to judge by the things written in the Gospel. As I judged by the things written in the Gospel, I found that the Spirit of Truth bore witness to the things written in the Quran.
 
In particular, the Quran quotes the words of Jesus where his message to his followers is for them to worship "my Lord and your Lord". Searching the New Testament, I found there was no basis for a "co-equal trinity" based on the words of Jesus himself since he used very exclusive language to delineate the difference between himself and his God.
 
I concluded that the Quran is true because it is a basic principle of Revelation that the Most High will not leave humanity without a Scripture of witness in the earth. When people who have received one Revelation of the Truth corrupt that truth by their traditions, then He sends another Messenger to reaffirm the Truth in denial of the added traditions.
 
He did that with Jesus, after the Jews had corrupted the Truth by their traditions and He did that with Muhammad after Christians had corrupted the Truth of what Jesus taught. My purpose in saying these things is not to offend you in the Christian traditions that you hold, but to simply bear witness to the Truth that I have received through the Quran.
 
Like brother Waheed pointed out, it is not for me to tell you that your religion is wrong, but I will tell you as the Quran tells you:  Judge by the things written in the Gospel --even as you have it today-- if you can read the words of Jesus there and rest content that you are following him as he intends, then peace be unto you.
 
My experience is that I could not follow him by associating myself with many Christian traditions.
 
Damo, the same goes for you:  if you can rest content that you are taking proper heed to the words of Jesus to worship his God, the only true God, then peace be unto you. I sincerely hope the best for you, even as I hope the best for my own family members who are following Catholic tradition. My testimony regarding the Truth of the Quran is part of my best wishes for both you and them.
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by eldon

I know the Quran is the Truth because it told me as a "person of the Gospel" to judge by the things written in the Gospel. As I judged by the things written in the Gospel, I found that the Spirit of Truth bore witness to the things written in the Quran.
 
In particular, the Quran quotes the words of Jesus where his message to his followers is for them to worship "my Lord and your Lord". Searching the New Testament, I found there was no basis for a "co-equal trinity" based on the words of Jesus himself since he used very exclusive language to delineate the difference between himself and his God.
 
Amen.  There is a definate distinction between Elohim and Jesus.
 
Originally posted by eldon

I concluded that the Quran is true because it is a basic principle of Revelation that the Most High will not leave humanity without a Scripture of witness in the earth. When people who have received one Revelation of the Truth corrupt that truth by their traditions, then He sends another Messenger to reaffirm the Truth in denial of the added traditions.
 
True.  At the beginning of every Dispensation (Seal), the Lord dispenses the gospel message back in it's purity.  We know that there are a total of 7 dispensations (Seals), the last having Christ reigning as King (2nd Coming).  Christ's first coming consisted of the 5th Dispensation (Seal).  Each time period is approximately 1000 years.
 
The beginning of a Seal is when it is in its pristine condition, then towards the end (1000 years or so later) the gospel message has had the interpolutions of men added.  Then when the Lord sees fit, he will open a new dispensation to restore that which was lost.
 
 
Originally posted by eldon

He did that with Jesus, after the Jews had corrupted the Truth by their traditions and He did that with Muhammad after Christians had corrupted the Truth of what Jesus taught. My purpose in saying these things is not to offend you in the Christian traditions that you hold, but to simply bear witness to the Truth that I have received through the Quran.
 
I agree to a degree.  You are right, with the gospel being restored through Jesus (and then he sent his apostles to teach abroad).  From the time of 700-585BC, the majority of the prophets who preached about the Messiah being the Son of God....the Jews rejected the Lord's messengers and killed them.  Then when the Messiah did come....their descendents also sought to take his life and the life of his apostles.  Even during the life of the apostles, they declared that the Apostacy had already set in.  Stating that wolves in sheep's clothing had already entered.
 
The Abrahamic Covenant was issued through the Tribes of Israel as an eternal inheritance.  This covenant that God made with Abraham, blessed Abraham's birthright holder with the responsibility to spread the gospel message with priesthood authority.  Yes....the Jews disqualified themselves of this position.  However, to Judah their father, he was blessed to hold the scepter (priesthood authority) until Shiloh (Christ) came.  Then He whose right it was to rule would.  However they rejected him, yet again.  The tribe of Judah is not the only tribe of Israel.  In fact the true heir was Joseph who was sold into slavery by his brethren, because Jacob gave him the coat of many colors (priesthood robes of authority) causing the other's to bow down to him (as Joseph's dream stated).
 
Tell me if I am wrong here.....Muhammad didn't claim to be a Dispensation Head (one who opens a seal) but one who closed a Seal.  For Muhammad was the last seal.  Meaning he closed a dispensation...not opened it.  Then no other prophet was sent to Islam again. 
 
But for the 6th Dispensation the prophethood is to continue not to end.  In fact as Malachi, stated that if the children and the fathers' hearts weren't welded together.....that the whole earth would be wasted at the second coming.  In other words, the prophethood (Seership) is to be currently held at the time that Christ comes again.  Seers seal family members together as eternal families through his priesthood.  If this is not the case....then the whole earth would be wasted by his coming.
 
 
Originally posted by eldon

Like brother Waheed pointed out, it is not for me to tell you that your religion is wrong, but I will tell you as the Quran tells you:  Judge by the things written in the Gospel --even as you have it today-- if you can read the words of Jesus there and rest content that you are following him as he intends, then peace be unto you.
 
My experience is that I could not follow him by associating myself with many Christian traditions.
 
I would have also had a hard time accepting the Trinity theory as well.  But there again, not all Christians are trinitarians.  Some of these traditions are incorrect.....however many are correct.
 
Originally posted by eldon

Damo, the same goes for you:  if you can rest content that you are taking proper heed to the words of Jesus to worship his God, the only true God, then peace be unto you. I sincerely hope the best for you, even as I hope the best for my own family members who are following Catholic tradition. My testimony regarding the Truth of the Quran is part of my best wishes for both you and them.
 
I am glad to see personal revelation in action. 
 
 


Edited by Janet Waters - 28 April 2008 at 7:03pm
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