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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by Damo808

God in Genesis 1:1 "B’raishees buruh Elohim ais hashomayim v’ais hueretz"
Translates literaly as ""In the beginning God(s) created the heavens and the earth." Elohim is the plural form meaning God's.
 
This is the Godhead Doctrine.
 
 
Originally posted by Traveller

Does it say which god created what?
 
Yes.  The Father created all things through the Son.  In other words....the Father decreed it and the Son performed it.  The Father is the Architect and the Son is the Builder/Carpenter.
 
Originally posted by Damo808

If there are more than 1 creator, don't they have to get together and coordinate?
 
This is the Trinity theory.....
 


Edited by Janet Waters - 28 April 2008 at 7:15pm
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 8:26pm
 No disrespect intentented to either catholics or LDS members but I feel there is a lot of techinical jargon in them .Honestly me being a layman it rather confuses me more than making things clear and reads more complicated than an engine overhaul service manual.
 I am truly struggling to keep up with the jargon and sometimes give up on reading on them all toghter.

 Sorry for hijacking my own thread for a while .Maybe if posters try it keep it simple for the sake of simpletons like me
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 8:53pm
Hi Desert Dude,

You're hardly a simpleton. As I recall you're a native of the peninsula of the Arabs (Abu Dhabi or Dubai?). You write much more proficient English than most Americanos can manage, despite the fact that it's probably your second (or third) language.

The term godhead is not a Christian term. As far as I can tell it's exclusively Mormon, made up by Joseph Smith & co.. He did this a lot, and as a result we have terms like "telestial" and "pe le el" which don't mean anything to anyone else except us.

If you'd like a bit of translation, I'd be glad to oblige. You can always reach me at the end of a p.m. if you have specific questions about Mormonese.

Originally posted by desertdude

 No disrespect intentented to either catholics or LDS members but I feel there is a lot of techinical jargon in them .Honestly me being a layman it rather confuses me more than making things clear and reads more complicated than an engine overhaul service manual.
 I am truly struggling to keep up with the jargon and sometimes give up on reading on them all toghter.

 Sorry for hijacking my own thread for a while .Maybe if posters try it keep it simple for the sake of simpletons like me
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Desert Dude,

You're hardly a simpleton. As I recall you're a native of the peninsula of the Arabs (Abu Dhabi or Dubai?). You write much more proficient English than most Americanos can manage, despite the fact that it's probably your second (or third) language.

The term godhead is not a Christian term. As far as I can tell it's exclusively Mormon, made up by Joseph Smith & co.. He did this a lot, and as a result we have terms like "telestial" and "pe le el" which don't mean anything to anyone else except us.

If you'd like a bit of translation, I'd be glad to oblige. You can always reach me at the end of a p.m. if you have specific questions about Mormonese.

Originally posted by desertdude

 No disrespect intentented to either catholics or LDS members but I feel there is a lot of techinical jargon in them .Honestly me being a layman it rather confuses me more than making things clear and reads more complicated than an engine overhaul service manual.
 I am truly struggling to keep up with the jargon and sometimes give up on reading on them all toghter.

 Sorry for hijacking my own thread for a while .Maybe if posters try it keep it simple for the sake of simpletons like me
 
 
 Hi Yish....
 
  The term "godhead" really only means "deity", or "divinity" as far as i'm aware.
 
  I know where your comin from DD when you say complicated. But much what makes it complicated is because the Bible draws on several millenia of  prophesy interwoven and culminatiing some times many long chapters apart. Its a pretty huge book, And much of Christian theology draws as much a part from the OT as it does in the NT, as the latter couldn't exist without the former. Faith doesn't require absolute knowlege, but if christians want to know the background to what they believe in, its straightforward enough though hugely elaborate due to the spans of time it covers. The Trinity is a mystery , it can be described to a degree, but beyond that one can only speculate. Though this dilema doesn't automatically render something an impossibility, when relating to the Divine, but ofcourse hard for many to accept. Me personally i would expect the very nature of God to go beyond human logic or comprehension, but i believe the gospel accounts and personally believe the Trinity is expressed undeniably. For others this is nonesense. I can accept that.


Edited by Damo808 - 28 April 2008 at 10:04pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 9:48pm
Originally posted by Damo808

"If there are more than 1 creator, don't they have to get together and coordinate?"
 
 
 Careful janet... a quote i quoted.....
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 10:00pm
Yes.  The Father created all things through the Son.  In other words....the Father decreed it and the Son performed it.  The Father is the Architect and the Son is the Builder/Carpenter.
 
That is very earthly.
 
In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by Traveller

Yes.  The Father created all things through the Son.  In other words....the Father decreed it and the Son performed it.  The Father is the Architect and the Son is the Builder/Carpenter.
 
That is very earthly.
 
 
 Through the Son, litterally His Word.
 
 Do Muslims not believe when God creates anything, it requires of Him only to say "BE" ... So why are you talking about a building project
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Traveller  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Traveller Replybullet Posted: 28 April 2008 at 11:16pm

That quote is not mine, but Janet's. When she said "the Father decreed it and the Son performed it", she made it sound like a building project.

In life, be like a traveller. Take only what you need
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2008 at 11:37am
Originally posted by Damo808

Hi Yish....
 
  The term "godhead" really only means "deity", or "divinity" as far as i'm aware.


I know you guys (Christians) use the term. Jews do as well. It means something entirely different for us (Mormons).

One more minor point. It is common for both Mormons and Christians to use the syriac/aramaic/hebrew word elohim in an attempt to suggest that the ancient Canaanites worshiped multiple gods, joined together in a "godhead". This is generally not a deliberate attempt to deceive or obfuscate, but stems from an ignorance of grammatical devices. English speakers are generally unaware of the class markers which are inherent in many other languages.

In German (arguably the closest language to English) there is a similar device which can be used to differentiate between formal and casual communication. If you're speaking to your spouse or a close friend, you use the du bist conjugation. If you are speaking to your boss, or to G-d, you use sie sind.

Sie sind technically is a third-person conjugation. Addressing someone with it in context does not indicate the belief that you are speaking to more than one person, or that you are speaking to a stranger about the person you are actually addressing, but it is rather a qualifier which denotes respect and a sense of submission to the authority or seniority of the person you are addressing.

In some parts of America, the plural is used as an informal - formal. English speakers in South Texas (largely ethnic Germans) use the vernacular "Y'all are" when speaking to individual strangers, though in that case the formality tends to suggest unfamiliarity rather than submission.

When the ancient Hebrews said "elohim", they weren't talking about gods, but about G-d, in a submissive and respectful fashion.

Best,

Yishmael


Edited by yishmael - 29 April 2008 at 11:40am
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2008 at 12:44pm
But much what makes it complicated is because the Bible draws on several millenia of  prophesy interwoven and culminatiing some times many long chapters apart. Its a pretty huge book, And much of Christian theology draws as much a part from the OT as it does in the NT, as the latter couldn't exist without the former. Faith doesn't require absolute knowlege, but if christians want to know the background to what they believe in, its straightforward enough though hugely elaborate due to the spans of time it covers. The Trinity is a mystery , it can be described to a degree, but beyond that one can only speculate. Though this dilema doesn't automatically render something an impossibility, when relating to the Divine, but ofcourse hard for many to accept. Me personally i would expect the very nature of God to go beyond human logic or comprehension, but i believe the gospel accounts and personally believe the Trinity is expressed undeniably.

Interesting to compare this with what the says about the unity of God, which can be summed up in four short verses:

Say: He is God, The One
God depends on nought; all is dependent on Him
He begets not nor is begotten
Nor is there anything comparable to Him


The Islamic creed about the nature of God, which the simplest child can understand, which is entirely in resonance with human logic and understanding, which has no mystery about it, and which is rationally impossible to reject.  The question I believe Christians should ponder is: why is this so simple in Islam, yet so complicated in your religion?



May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2008 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

But much what makes it complicated is because the Bible draws on several millenia of  prophesy interwoven and culminatiing some times many long chapters apart. Its a pretty huge book, And much of Christian theology draws as much a part from the OT as it does in the NT, as the latter couldn't exist without the former. Faith doesn't require absolute knowlege, but if christians want to know the background to what they believe in, its straightforward enough though hugely elaborate due to the spans of time it covers. The Trinity is a mystery , it can be described to a degree, but beyond that one can only speculate. Though this dilema doesn't automatically render something an impossibility, when relating to the Divine, but ofcourse hard for many to accept. Me personally i would expect the very nature of God to go beyond human logic or comprehension, but i believe the gospel accounts and personally believe the Trinity is expressed undeniably.

Interesting to compare this with what the says about the unity of God, which can be summed up in four short verses:

Say: He is God, The One
God depends on nought; all is dependent on Him
He begets not nor is begotten
Nor is there anything comparable to Him


The Islamic creed about the nature of God, which the simplest child can understand, which is entirely in resonance with human logic and understanding, which has no mystery about it, and which is rationally impossible to reject.  The question I believe Christians should ponder is: why is this so simple in Islam, yet so complicated in your religion?

 
 
 Simplicity doesn't necessarily mean something muct be true because its easily fathomed. Believing in Christianity, doesn't mean one muct know every theological reasoning why they do. But if they have doubts answers are available. If for example i wanted to start my own cult religion  tomorrow, what would be the easiest way to attract followers, by a simple concept, or one which requires a more in depth analysis. A simplistic concept is clearly one many cults adopt.
 
 God is One yes, Alone yes.. depends on none yes. We've been down this path before. The Christian God is One. But it is you who say three.. the reasoning behind this has been/is being explained in other current threads.
 He beggets none nor is beggoten < This is not in the OT only in the Quran.
 There are also several verses in the OT,  which illustrate three distinct individuals as God.


Edited by Damo808 - 29 April 2008 at 1:41pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LtTony Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2008 at 8:18pm

I can't, for the life of me imagine how it is for 3 different beings to come together as one and said, "Let there Be".
 
How you can accept it is something that is beyond me too.


I can.  On top of that, it doesn't seem that complicated to me.  At the same time, I can also understand that some people don't accept it, or any explanation.


Man is one being, yet consists of a physical body, a mind, and a spirit.  All are seperate and distinct from each other, yet all make up one whole.  In the Trinity God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are all seperate and dinstinct yet they are all part of one God.

  If what you are saying is the case, does that not imply that God wants us to believe in something beyond our rationale?  And if so, how can this be fair?


God is perfect justice.  If, in fact, it is beyond your rationale, then I suppose that is how you will be judged.
It doesn't seem complicated to me.  But I can see it clearly doesn't mae sense to others.
Along those same lines:

I simply cannot fathom that God will throw anyone into hell because that person was told to believe something contrary to his internal nature, and to what he sees with eyes, and hears with his ears.  God cannot be that unjust.  After all, God is our creator and He knows what our brains are capable of encompassing.

You said so it's impossible to explain how God is one and yet three. That makes it irrational. And in order to believe in the christians doctrine, one has to be irrational. Is that how God expect of us?


Again it is not irrational, IMO, and I think all of us would agree that God is not unjust.  He wouldn't ask of us anything we couldn't handle. Sometimes we need God's help, though.  Maybe praying for wisdom, strength and insight would help some.  I'm sure others have already done that.  In that case, they have done their best, IMO.
I do not think it impossible, as some others have said, to explain the trinity.  While I prefer some explanations over others,  I don't understand why some people limit what is acceptable or rationale.
In that respect, I must say that I find the criteria of "internal nature...eyes...ears," a little narrow.  The heart and spirit should fit in there somewhere.

As Katy098 wrote, "How can a women who is a Virgin give birth to a child? And I want a rational answer, something that can be proven by science, so no "By God's power" or something similar."
Or our belief in miracles, she went on to ask.
Myself, I know it is difficult if not impossible for some atheists to understand how God could permit an infant, to die or be born with debilitating mental and physical handicaps.  You can explain it to those people, but they find it absurd.  Or how God can hear millions of prayers at the same time or be in every square inch of the universe at the same time.  Explain that to them and see how far it gets you.

amox wrote: "What is unexplainable is not necessarily irrational. Because I (or you)cannot explain how and why God acts they way He acts, and is the way He is, and creates the way He creates, does not mean my belief in God is irrational."

If the Trinity is true, why hasn't Jesus explained it without ambiguity?


Jesus has explained it through His church; he said he would be with us always.  Before He ascended into heaven, the risen Christ told his followers that He hadn't told them everything, that they "couldn't bear to hear" some things at that time.  (Scripture tells us many of His own Apostles were very confused about what He was saying, even at His death. Yet Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit.  When the Holy Spirit arrived, even the Apostles were surprised at how "their minds were opened" and what gifts they now possessed.  Like all of us, they then embarked on understanding of the fullness of faith.

And as Mad Cat wrote: "Mad Cat  It depends a lot on what exactly you have in mind when you say this. IMO there are very good reasons Jesus didn’t just say ‘I am God’."

I would add that Christ affirmed His oneness with the Father throughout scripture.  Christ might not have said it in a manner in which some would like, but He did.
Here is some scripture that I can'r recall being used on this subject here, and a samll explanation written by a former poster:
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? 63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. 64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. Matt 26:62-66 (KJV)

"You see, until Caiphas invoked the living God, Jesus kept silent. As soon as Caiphas said "I adjure thee by the living God",as a righteous Jew, Jesus was bound to answer and answer truthfully. And the way Jesus answered, Caiphas understood clearly who Jesus was saying He was. The clincher was referring to Himself as "sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven which was a reference to Messiah in Daniel 7:13 "

Surely it is. God in the early days is just 1 God. Christians now say God is 1 God but in three different forms. Surely that is a major difference in nature.


God is one.  We just know His nature better through Jesus Christ, His Son.  I don't see a problem with mankind knowing God better, that everything about Him must be the limited to same understanding as Adam had on the first day.  By the way, I doubt we will ever know God completely, as well as He knows Himself.  Even in heaven probably.

 

"I feel there is a lot of techinical jargon in the" explanations


I'm sorry to hear that, DD.  But I think explanations have been to rudimentary as to border on silly.  Metaphors like "(3 leaves - 1 plant)" and " 1 pencil + 1 pencil + 1 pencil does not = 1  pencil, one lead + one bit of wood + one coat of paint can = one pencil,"  have been derided elsewhere as almost childlike, although not in this thread.


Edited by LtTony - 29 April 2008 at 11:12pm
"“We love death. The US loves life. That is the difference between us two.” Osama Bin Laden
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 8:39pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Yes.  The Father created all things through the Son.  In other words....the Father decreed it and the Son performed it.  The Father is the Architect and the Son is the Builder/Carpenter.
 
Originally posted by Traveller

That is very earthly.



And.....Were do you think that which is earthly came from?


The lesser was patterned after the greater!

Just like Adam was patterned after the image of God.....
This earth was patterned after the image of heaven.
The lesser natural laws of the earth were patterned after the higher Eternal laws of heaven.

Mortality for us is but a temporary state, however,  Immortality is forever.
This earth is presently in a temporary mortal state (telestial) and it too will change into that which is greater (terrestrial and then finally into celestial).


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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2008 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Yes.  The Father created all things through the Son.  In other words....the Father decreed it and the Son performed it.  The Father is the Architect and the Son is the Builder/Carpenter.
 
Originally posted by Traveller

That is very earthly.
 
Originally posted by Damo808

Through the Son, literally His Word.



If I was a trinitarian I would interpret the title of the "Word" as literally meaning "the Father's words."  But I am not a trinitarian, nor do I interpret, what I said as literally "the Father's words....."

Instead I was saying, the Son who holds the name-title: "The
Word" is literally the Son of God. (Son of Elohim).  The Son is the mouthpiece (prophet/divine son/representative) relaying the Father's words to man for it is his divine birthright as head of the human family.



 

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