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InterReligious Dialogue
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Topic: What's in a name?
    Posted: 21 April 2008 at 11:13am
"Wahhabist", "Jihadist", "Islamacist" ...ugh. 
 
Is there any better, less offensive and more neutral term to designate the extremist fringe as opposed to those of the true Muslim religion?
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 12:21pm
How do you define the extremist fringe?  
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UmDanu  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote UmDanu Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 4:39pm

 

Alqaidaist

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Misbah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Misbah Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 5:28pm
Suicide Blonde. 
"Donít be so humble - you ain't that great."
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

How do you define the extremist fringe?  
 
Those who would twist Islam to justify and encourage killing civilians and noncombatants in the name of Allah.
 
And yes, I am well aware that Islam is far from  the only group to have such extremists; other religions and groups (and governments) have them also.
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:32pm
Moz'lem
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2008 at 8:52pm
I'm coming to use the word Qutbist.

We have our crazy people too, unfortunately. They're traditionally called Danites.
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Sagefrakrobatik  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sagefrakrobatik Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:44am
While were on the subject of names did you know that the Arabic word for infidel doesnt translate into disbeliever but more so "one who lacks thankfulness."
Why eat vegetarians when you could eat meat eaters. They have more protein.
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Misbah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Misbah Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by yishmael

I'm coming to use the word Qutbist.

We have our crazy people too, unfortunately. They're traditionally called Danites.




Erm...sorry.


The neighbours came into my house the other week and into the kitchen and god did i wish they hadn't, lol.. i completely forgot i had a book called 'JIHAD' (NOT what you think, its a novel) and it was on the shelf in the kitchen and oh did it stand out, then they looked at me, said 'your a Muslim right? and a Afghan'? ...... and i was ..erm...lol







"Donít be so humble - you ain't that great."
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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Sagefrakrobatik

While were on the subject of names did you know that the Arabic word for infidel doesnt translate into disbeliever but more so "one who lacks thankfulness."



You are referring to the word "Kaafir" which is usually translated as disbeliever, but has the meaning of one who is ungrateful, or who covers the truth. In fact, the statement Kafara [he was ungrateful] is the opposite, in arabic grammar, of the word shakara [he was grateful].

For more information, obtain the book The language of revelation, pp.227-229. Contact me for details.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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eldon  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 8:50am
Thanks for that information!  it helps very much to realize how we ALL need to guard against ungratefulness which equates to being kafir!
 
I searched the word ungrateful at Islamicity's Quran search
 and it showed these verses, confirming that ungrateful = kafir:
 
Al-Insan (Man)

76:3 We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).

Inna hadaynahu alssabeela imma shakiran waimma kafooran 

 
 
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:276 Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.

Yamhaqu Allahu alrriba wayurbee alssadaqati waAllahu la yuhibbu kulla kaffarin atheemin  

An-Nahl (The Bee)

16:72 And Allah has made for you mates (and companions) of your own nature, and made for you, out of them, sons and daughters and grandchildren, and provided for you sustenance of the best: will they then believe in vain things, and be ungrateful for Allah's favours?-

WaAllahu jaAAala lakum min anfusikum azwajan wajaAAala lakum min azwajikum baneena wahafadatan warazaqakum mina alttayyibati afabialbatili yuminoona wabiniAAmati Allahi hum yakfuroona

An-Nahl (The Bee)

16:83 They recognise the favours of Allah. then they deny them; and most of them are (creatures) ungrateful.

YaAArifoona niAAmata Allahi thumma yunkiroonaha waaktharuhumu alkafiroona

16:112 Allah sets forth a Parable: a city enjoying security and quiet, abundantly supplied with sustenance from every place: Yet was it ungrateful for the favours of Allah. so Allah made it taste of hunger and terror (in extremes) (closing in on it) like a garment (from every side), because of the (evil) which (its people) wrought.

Wadaraba Allahu mathalan qaryatan kanat aminatan mutmainnatan yateeha rizquha raghadan min kulli makanin fakafarat bianAAumi Allahi faathaqaha Allahu libasa aljooAAi waalkhawfi bima kanoo yasnaAAoona  

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)

17:27 Verily spendthrifts are brothers of the Evil Ones; and the Evil One is to his Lord (himself) ungrateful.

Inna almubaththireena kanoo ikhwana alshshayateeni wakana alshshaytanu lirabbihi kafooran

Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)

17:67 When distress seizes you at sea, those that ye call upon - besides Himself - leave you in the lurch! but when He brings you back safe to land, ye turn away (from Him). Most ungrateful is man!

Waitha massakumu alddurru fee albahri dalla man tadAAoona illa iyyahu falamma najjakum ila albarri aAAradtum wakana alinsanu kafooran

Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage)

22:66 It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to die, and will again give you life: Truly man is a most ungrateful creature!

Wahuwa allathee ahyakum thumma yumeetukum thumma yuhyeekum inna alinsana lakafoorun

Al-'Ankabut (The Spider)

29:66 Disdaining ungratefully Our gifts, and giving themselves up to (worldly) enjoyment! But soon will they know.

Liyakfuroo bima ataynahum waliyatamattaAAoo fasawfa yaAAlamoona

Ar-Rum (The Romans)

30:51 And if We (but) send a Wind from which they see (their tilth) turn yellow,- behold, they become, thereafter, ungrateful (Unbelievers)!

Walain arsalna reehan faraawhu musfarran lathalloo min baAAdihi yakfuroona

Luqman (Luqman)

31:12 we bestowed (in the past) Wisdom on Luqman: "Show (thy) gratitude to Allah." Any who is (so) grateful does so to the profit of his own soul: but if any is ungrateful, verily Allah is free of all wants, Worthy of all praise.

Walaqad atayna luqmana alhikmata ani oshkur lillahi waman yashkur fainnama yashkuru linafsihi waman kafara fainna Allaha ghaniyyun hameedun

Fatir (The Originator of Creation)

35:36 But those who reject ((Allah)) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one!

Waallatheena kafaroo lahum naru jahannama la yuqda AAalayhim fayamootoo wala yukhaffafu AAanhum min AAathabiha kathalika najzee kulla kafoorin

Az-Zumar (The Groups)

39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.

Ala lillahi alddeenu alkhalisu waallatheena ittakhathoo min doonihi awliyaa ma naAAbuduhum illa liyuqarriboona ila Allahi zulfa inna Allaha yahkumu baynahum fee ma hum feehi yakhtalifoona inna Allaha la yahdee man huwa kathibun kaffarun

(I can't read Arabic myself, but using the transliteration tool at Islamicity makes it fairly easy to pick out the words containing the letters kfr where they occur together in the text)
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

Islam">Islam
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StoryMing  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote StoryMing Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 10:44am
 bravo!
Thanks for the info
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Massu  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Massu Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 1:32pm
Excellent! That does seem to be the most fitting word, seeing as the extremist fringe are the ones who often most heavily violate Islam's most vital laws. What a psychological complex they must have... projecting their own failures to live a noble life on the entire world.
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2008 at 3:12pm
Hey Massu,

I really admire your insights on this forum. You touched on something I've been attempting to deconstruct for a few weeks now.

Psychoanalysis of entire socio-religious bodies is difficult. Here's an early historical attempt by Freud, who analyzed Jews (and by default, the Jewish God).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_and_Monotheism

And here's one by his friend and pupil, Carl Jung, who did the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Answer_to_Job

Most people realize these as noble attempts to uncover the structure of the relationship between men and women and the God they revere. At the same time, we are always limited by our own inherent inability to contemplate God.

If we were to analyze modern religious extremists as a collective body of people, we would have to reduce them to a monolithic entity. We would also have to reduce God, as this monolith sees him, into something we can understand. Therein lies the problem.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but before we do it, we should realize that we're going to get human answers to human questions, and they won't account for individual variations within the group.

The best attempt to do this in modern times (that I have found) was an attempt by a man named Edward Said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said

Said wrote a book called Orientalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalism_%28book%29

Said's contention is that the structure of interaction between the Arab world and the West is inherently divisive. Westerners, regardless of religion, interact with God in a different way than Arabs do. Said wrote from a Palestinian Christian perspective, and there were shades of comparison to Western Christians, but what he said was meant to be applicable to Muslims and Jews also.

What Said proposed almost approached an idea of false consciousness. Our interactions with one another are predicated upon false assumptions, and the interactions which are successful in this structure are those which tend to reinforce misleading conclusions about one another, which leads to more false assumptions.

Re: your specific comment (which I am not criticizing directly, mind you) you wrote...

Originally posted by Massu

the extremist fringe are the ones who often most heavily violate Islam's most vital laws. What a psychological complex they must have... projecting their own failures to live a noble life on the entire world.


This is very common, and in our own cultural context it is logical also. However it's incomplete. It poses the extremists as the subjects of the narrative, and reduces their complaints to a collective neurosis.

From our perspective, this makes perfect sense, but from the perspective of objective historical and social relations, it's incomplete. It fails to account for the fact that the extremists were taught their bad behavior by Western interests (such as T.E. Lawrence, the first international terrorist, who used Arab guerrillas to harass the Turks in WWI, up to the CIA and KGB, which fought proxy wars in Egypt and Afghanistan through the late 1980s).

Mormons have a similarly skewed perspective on their own extreme behavior in the early days. It's easier for us to analyze our relationship with God, because the Mormon God is essentially human, but otherwise our relationship with our neighbors in Ohio and Missouri and Illinois is also littered with false constructions.

In any event: Religious extremism is a very complex phenomenon. I admire folks like yourself who make an honest attempt at understanding the people who indulge in it, rather than simply relying upon scapegoating or dismissing them. Back to the original topic, I think we're all coming to a greater understanding of the inherent inability to pigeonhole all the people who interpret religion to include political violence. It would be nice to simply put a name on everyone involved, but a casual analysis proves the difficulty in doing this.
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