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yishmael  
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bullet Topic: Yishmael & Janet Waters Discuss Their Dif
    Posted: 21 April 2008 at 10:40pm
Sister Waters,

You seem to have more to say to me. Lest we derail anyone else's discussion, I thought I'd create a sandbox for further sound 'n' fury. If you see me post something that you feel is incorrect, and you'd like to get personal with the Secular Mormon, go ahead and bring it here.

In your last article, posted here:
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22338&PN=3
you again implied I was an apostate and that I should have my name removed or be otherwise excommunicated from the church.

Fortunately, I have a bishop and a stake president who are both decent non-Utah, non-fanatic type fellows. They have made me perfectly welcome despite the fact that I have a postmodern interpretation of Mormon Doctrine.

I am committed to keeping my temple recommend until my youngest sibling gets married. At that point, I might take you up on your offer. Bear in mind though, that excommunication does not remove one from the body of "Mormons". If I were excommunicated, I would remain a Mormon for the rest of my life.

Being a Mormon is similar to being a Jew. You never really get away from it, even if you want to. If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.

you wrote:


All you have given me is excuses and excuses of why you can't believe.  Stand up and quit being a victim.  Quit hiding behind words. 

As our fore-fathers sing from the dust:

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard? 
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins;
fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell--
All is well!  All is well!!


And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day!   All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow too;
With the Just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain;
Oh how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well!  All is well!!


I take it by this that you're here to "gird up your loins" and "fight" with people of other faiths. I think that's unfortunate -- for you most of all -- as I've learned that fighting tends to teach little and harm much. I have as much in common with these people as I do with you, and I prefer to learn new and interesting things to squabbling back and forth.
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by yishmael

In your last article, posted here:
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22338&PN=3
you again implied I was an apostate and that I should have my name removed or be otherwise excommunicated from the church.


I'm saying that you are either a believer or not.  You profess to be an atheist........therefore you are not a believer.

Originally posted by yishmael

Fortunately, I have a bishop and a stake president who are both decent non-Utah, non-fanatic type fellows. They have made me perfectly welcome despite the fact that I have a postmodern interpretation of Mormon Doctrine.


All Bishops/Stake Presidents will welcome all.  Every erring individual is given space to grow and repent.....as long as that individual is not dangerous to the welfare of others.


Originally posted by yishmael

I am committed to keeping my temple recommend until my youngest sibling gets married. At that point, I might take you up on your offer. Bear in mind though, that excommunication does not remove one from the body of "Mormons". If I were excommunicated, I would remain a Mormon for the rest of my life.


In order to have and keep a temple recommend-- a person has to be able to honestly answer certain questions.  These answers are given "on your honor" directed to God through his anointed messengers.  Based on our previous conversations.....you would not be able to honestly answer these questions and retain that recommend.  Therefore to continue to keep that recommend and walk into the temple is to do so unworthily.

You may fool some of the people some of the time, however, God cannot be fooled.  To enter his house (the temple--not the church) unworthily is to drink damnation to the soul.  I hope being there for your youngest sibling's marriage is worth that....to you.  I'm sure if the rest of your family was aware of this....they would want far better for you than you want for yourself.



Originally posted by yishmael

Being a Mormon is similar to being a Jew. You never really get away from it, even if you want to. If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.



I see that you consider yourself a "cultural mormon."  Even still this will not save you of the second death.  Both faith and works are required in order to lay claim to the name of a true believer.


New Testament | Revelation 2:7 - 11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
8  And unto the angel (servant:Bishop) of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9  I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10  Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Originally posted by Janet Waters

All you have given me is excuses and excuses of why you can't believe.  Stand up and quit being a victim.  Quit hiding behind words. 

As our fore-fathers sing from the dust:

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard? 
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins;
fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell--
All is well!  All is well!!


And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day!   All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow too;
With the Just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain;
Oh how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well!  All is well!!


Originally posted by Janet Waters

I take it by this that you're here to "gird up your loins" and "fight" with people of other faiths. I think that's unfortunate -- for you most of all -- as I've learned that fighting tends to teach little and harm much. I have as much in common with these people as I do with you, and I prefer to learn new and interesting things to squabbling back and forth.


No, I'm on this site as a true representative of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am here for varied reasons, one of which, is to dispel the incorrect assumptions about us and our doctrine.

Other organizations, who are not us, try to fool people into believing that they are us, and thus continue the ignorance that prevails.  For short we are the LDS Church....we are not the FLDS or the RLDS or anyother organization who choose to call themselves "Mormon" when they are not.  (Including this self proclaimed "secular mormon" belief system that is not consistent with mormon doctrine).

Those who do not believe in our doctrine are free to join another church or create one of their own making.  A person is either one of us (Mormon) or he is apart from us.  We do not have sects within the Church.  Those who cannot live the gospel are excommunicated and are not a part of us.

We as a people are commanded to be "one" as the Father and the Son are one.  This oneness means to be unified with one heart, might, mind, and strength.  If we as a people are not united we are not "HIS."

If we allow ourselves to be divided (into sects like others) we will not be accepted of the Lord.  If we allow ourselves to become divided...this is when the destroyer comes in amongst us and sows tares amongst the wheat.  This is how the harvest is destroyed.

Therefore, for the benefit of all, only the true believers who are in good standing with the Church are the body of the Church.  All others need to either conform their lives to be in accordance with this..........or leave.






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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

In your last article, posted here:
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22338&PN=3
you again implied I was an apostate and that I should have my name removed or be otherwise excommunicated from the church.


I'm saying that you are either a believer or not.  You profess to be an atheist........therefore you are not a believer.

Originally posted by yishmael

Fortunately, I have a bishop and a stake president who are both decent non-Utah, non-fanatic type fellows. They have made me perfectly welcome despite the fact that I have a postmodern interpretation of Mormon Doctrine.


All Bishops/Stake Presidents will welcome all.  Every erring individual is given space to grow and repent.....as long as that individual is not dangerous to the welfare of others.


Originally posted by yishmael

I am committed to keeping my temple recommend until my youngest sibling gets married. At that point, I might take you up on your offer. Bear in mind though, that excommunication does not remove one from the body of "Mormons". If I were excommunicated, I would remain a Mormon for the rest of my life.


In order to have and keep a temple recommend-- a person has to be able to honestly answer certain questions.  These answers are given "on your honor" directed to God through his anointed messengers.  Based on our previous conversations.....you would not be able to honestly answer these questions and retain that recommend.  Therefore to continue to keep that recommend and walk into the temple is to do so unworthily.

You may fool some of the people some of the time, however, God cannot be fooled.  To enter his house (the temple--not the church) unworthily is to drink damnation to the soul.  I hope being there for your youngest sibling's marriage is worth that....to you.  I'm sure if the rest of your family was aware of this....they would want far better for you than you want for yourself.



There is a reason that the temple recommend questions are specific and that the leadership is not allowed to delve any deeper than simple yes or no answers. I've been very open for many years (with the right people, of course -- I don't talk to true believers too much, because I'm generally not interested in what they have to say).

The brethren welcome people like me to remain recommend holders and the brethren consider me worthy, despite the fact that I define the recommend questions differently than you and other true believers do. Whether this is due to open-mindedness at the top, or whether it's simply a desire to get (what I define as) a full tithe out of me is not a question I can answer.

Here's what you don't seem to understand: You don't get to define me, or anyone else. Mormonism isn't a church you get to wall up. You don't get to tell me I'm unworthy, either. The fact that you're doing so here means you are putting yourself above God and his "judges in zion". You might want to talk to your own bishop about this, as by your own definition you are as sinful as anyone.

All others need to either conform their lives to be in accordance with this..........or leave.


This is the statement of a cult leader, not an honorable seeker of the divine. Interesting that you mentioned the FLDS earlier, as this is precisely what they base their theology upon.

Best,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by yishmael



If I do leave Mormonism, I'm pretty sure I'll go to my in-law's (reform) temple, or maybe I'll chill with the Episcopalians, as neither of these traditions hold that belief in a literal God is necessary to spiritual growth.




Salam Yishmael

Hope I'm not butting in, but what do you mean about another church or Episcopalians not holding the belief in a literal God?

Jamilah
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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:14pm
Hi Jamilah,

Many Episcopalians (American Anglican Christians) and many Reform Jews (followers of another American movement) do believe in a literal, personal God.

These two movements, in practice, are a bit more tolerant about members who do not see God in the personal, traditional way that is common.

Rabbi Kaplan would probably have been very welcome in either movement, as it exists today.

Kaplan affirmed that God is not personal, and that all anthropomorphic descriptions of God are, at best, imperfect metaphors. Kaplan's theology went beyond this to claim that God is the sum of all natural processes that allow man to become self-fulfilled. Kaplan wrote that "to believe in God means to take for granted that it is man's destiny to rise above the brute and to eliminate all forms of violence and exploitation from human society."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstructionist_Judaism

I wish I could put my own thoughts on God better than the Rebbe here, but I can't.

Another (typically American) movement which is said to have a similar tolerant structure are the Unitarian Universalist congregations. I don't know as much about them and have never been to one of their services, so I hope any members will feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Muslims can perhaps see something similar in the subtext here:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Harmony_of_Religions_and_Philosophy
If I find an ibn-Rushd style masjid in my area, then I might start attending that once in a while too. :)

I hope that explains my own position a little bit better than I did previously. If you're more confused than ever, well, I am too. It's tough trying to figure out all the whys and wherefores of this life, and I'm nowhere near getting to the secrets of the universe. I resigned myself long ago to the idea that asking questions is more important than mere belief anyway, so I'm likely to change my mind tomorrow if circumstances or evidence manages to sway me in any particular direction.

Best Regards,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 5:42pm
Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.


That's good. I hope I do not come across as the typical "Mormon missionary" who thinks that he has the "one true way" with which to stump. I'm here neither to convert, nor be converted. I'm not here to defend the faith. I'm just here to educate myself.

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by jamilahz

Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.


That's good. I hope I do not come across as the typical "Mormon missionary" who thinks that he has the "one true way" with which to stump. I'm here neither to convert, nor be converted. I'm not here to defend the faith. I'm just here to educate myself.

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.


Brigham Young would be appalled with that claim.

This is insane!  There is only one Church by the name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or otherwise known as The Mormon Church).

All other organizations who claim that they are.........are deceivers and are in reality anti-mormon....whether or not they smart enough to figure that out! 

People who are ex-communicated from the Church.........are no longer associated with us and are not members of the same faith.  They can get their own identity through another organization who call themselves another name.  AND NOT MADE-UP COMBINATIONS OF OUR NAME--- WHICH ARE BEING USED TO DECEIVE THEMSELVES AND/OR OTHERS INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE MEMBERS OF OUR CHURCH.

If you want to follow your own doctrines........do it with another name. 





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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 7:35pm
Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

Originally posted by jamilahz

Well thanks!  Yes I'm confused but that is ok... you bring some new life to these threads that is enjoyable.


That's good. I hope I do not come across as the typical "Mormon missionary" who thinks that he has the "one true way" with which to stump. I'm here neither to convert, nor be converted. I'm not here to defend the faith. I'm just here to educate myself.

Janet doesn't like the Atheist designation I adopted. Whoever is in charge of this joint oughta put Mormon into its own category. Mormonism doesn't fit into the definition of Christian anyway.

So rather than Christian (Mormon) you could have Mormon (LDS) / Mormon (FLDS) / Mormon (RLDS) / Mormon (Strangite) / Mormon (Secular)

I would, of course, fit into the last category more closely than the first, which is where I'd imagine Sister Waters would go, even though we technically are both Brighamites.


Brigham Young would be appalled with that claim.

This is insane!  There is only one Church by the name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or otherwise known as The Mormon Church).

All other organizations who claim that they are.........are deceivers and are in reality anti-mormon....whether or not they smart enough to figure that out! 

People who are ex-communicated from the Church.........are no longer associated with us and are not members of the same faith.  They can get their own identity through another organization who call themselves another name.  AND NOT MADE-UP COMBINATIONS OF OUR NAME--- WHICH ARE BEING USED TO DECEIVE THEMSELVES AND/OR OTHERS INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE MEMBERS OF OUR CHURCH.

If you want to follow your own doctrines........do it with another name. 



Sorry. RLDS, FLDS and others do have a historical and legitimate claim to the word "Mormon", whether or not they embrace it. As does D. Michael Quinn and others who may have been excommunicated from the Brighamite faction.

D. Michael Quinn is a "Mormon" because he was born into a Mormon family and he still calls himself one. He's smarter than both of us and I trust him to know enough about himself to describe himself accurately. Whether or not his name is on the membership roster in SLC is of no consequence whatever. The fact that Janet Waters doesn't recognize him as a "Mormon" means absolutely nothing to everyone, with the possible exception of "Janet Waters".

You seem to feel that ours is the "Church of Janet Waters" and as such, you can tell others who and what they are. Needless to say, I don't recognize your authority as prophet, seer and revelator and I'll encourage anyone else here not to take you too seriously either.

I was going to let this go, but I'll also point out that your earlier claim of being some sort of official spokesperson for the LDS church is laughable and ridiculous. The church is a corporation, and has a PR department and a bunch of apostles (i.e. a board of directors) who have the job of speaking for the church. Neither of us can usurp their positions.

You wrote:
I'm on this site as a true representative of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I am here for varied reasons, one of which, is to dispel the incorrect assumptions about us and our doctrine.


So far you've treated me (your brother in the faith) with far more contempt than any Muslim or Christian has so far done. Not only that, but you've also opened up the freakin' BOOK OF ABRAHAM as a legitimate topic of discussion. (LOL! LOL! LOL!)

I doubt any "true representative" possessed of an ounce of discretion or good sense would have done this.

You don't speak for me or any other Mormon. You don't represent the LDS church. You speak only for yourself. Remember that.

Best,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 8:03pm
I don't know if this is just me... but you (yishmael)seem to call yourself a Mormon and a atheist... this is very confusing for anyone with a brain... Being an atheist you believe there is no god or that god has no authority over the people here on earth... and being a Mormon you believe that god loves all his children and that you will be saved and your so religious... blah blah blah... Mormons and atheist are complete opposites... one is PRO GOD and one is ANTI GOD... I don't know... maybe you have a split personality and you go back and forth but either way you're confused... try your logic on someone else in your state of confusion/delusion cause I'm not buying.
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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 9:15pm
Originally posted by sbananamarie11

I don't know if this is just me... but you (yishmael)seem to call yourself a Mormon and a atheist... this is very confusing for anyone with a brain... Being an atheist you believe there is no god or that god has no authority over the people here on earth... and being a Mormon you believe that god loves all his children and that you will be saved and your so religious... blah blah blah... Mormons and atheist are complete opposites... one is PRO GOD and one is ANTI GOD... I don't know... maybe you have a split personality and you go back and forth but either way you're confused... try your logic on someone else in your state of confusion/delusion cause I'm not buying.


Nice to see another missionary here to defend the faith, indulging in personal attacks rather than debating the issues.

Steve Benson is a secular Mormon who (like me) is skeptical about the existence of God. He won a Pulitzer Prize. Margaret & Paul Toscano have also called themselves secular Mormons. They write peer reviewed journal articles. They're all good examples of people who have a better grasp on logic than you (and me too).

Whether you and Janet like it or not, I'll continue to define myself by the *Mormon* label, which is my birthright. If I'm ever interested in your own interpretation, I'll look for the "Church of sbananamarie11" and see about attending meetings. Until then, you'll just have to deal with it.

Take Care,

Yishmael
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 10:55pm
So do you "secular mormons" have regular meetings? or do you just spit out claims of "being mormons" without the doctrines to support yourselves?

And what issues are you supposedly talking about... the name of the forum is to discuss your differences... isn't that what I am doing? or did you over look that?

And these references mean nothing to me... I've never heard of them... so I looked them up...

1st Steve Benson never once claimed he was a secular mormon....

and 2nd neither did Paul Toscano or his wife ever claim they were "secular mormons" and I quote "Toscano has stated that he lost his faith and said he feels remorse only for being so angry at the LDS Church." They write books... not articles.

And what is this birthright you speak of... is it the birthright to manipulate words and doctrines at your wim to suit your fancy?

And no you won't find the "church of sbananamarie11" because that doesn't exist. Sbananamarie11 knows what church she belongs to and doesn't have to make one up.

Shanna
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:18pm
Now I'm curious... is there some master list of who is mormon somewhere?  You mentioned that he could be ex communicated from the church??
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Steve Benson is a secular Mormon who (like me) is skeptical about the existence of God. He won a Pulitzer Prize. Margaret & Paul Toscano have also called themselves secular Mormons. They write peer reviewed journal articles. They're all good examples of people who have a better grasp on logic than you (and me too).


Do you personally know Steve?  I don't.  However, I know other family members within the Benson family.  President Benson's sister, spoke at my father's baptism.  I grew up with her grandchildren (nephews of Pres. Benson) in their native state.  Over the years, I had weekly if not daily contact with them seeing them grow up in the Benson family.  They were true blue faithful members.  They had respect for their great uncle.  Not to say that they were all perfect, but they were believers.  Unfortunately, every good family ends up having a black sheep or two.  I'm sad to see the Benson's were no different.

So in order to join the "black-sheep" society--- you need to be excommunicated?  If that's the group you identify with.....why don't you make it legal. 

There again back and forth.......back and forth.  Are you schizophrenic too or just bipolar? 





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