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Message Icon Topic: Yishmael & Janet Waters Discuss Their Dif(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:22pm
I'm surprised at you Janet.. I would never think you would ask someone if they had a serious medical disorder as a joke at their expense.  
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

Now I'm curious... is there some master list of who is mormon somewhere?  You mentioned that he could be ex communicated from the church??


Yes Church Headquarters.  Individual records can be looked up by the clerk of the congregation (ward) within the geographical boundaries that the individual lives in.

When a person is excommunicated their name is blotted-out from the records of the Church.


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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:39pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm surprised at you Janet.. I would never think you would ask someone if they had a serious medical disorder as a joke at their expense.  


I'm giving him a chance to save face....since he is full of excuses.






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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:44pm
What I meant is that I don't expect you to stoop to such a level as to say such a childish thing.  
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:48pm
No.... in all seriousness....sometimes it takes a shocking remark to help a person realize there is something seriously wrong.  If this person expects to be taken seriously, then he needs to go back and re-read his posts and try to make sense of his own contradictions.

I have "0" Tolerance....sorry.



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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 22 April 2008 at 11:56pm
I know you take yourself very seriously.. .but you can't just go around calling people things like that.  
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:07am
LOL well if the shoe fits...
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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:08am
Hi Shana,

Someone told me that you're Janet's teenage daughter. It's strange that someone who claims to be on a mission from the church needs her family members to shill for her, but not surprising.

Of course I have meetings. I go to a regular ward. I usually attend sacrament meeting and skip out on the rest.

Secular Mormons are in your own ward. We teach gospel doctrine and do service projects. You don't see us because we know how you'll react ... and your mother's reaction is an excellent example.

I don't dislike your mother. She's insecure and probably doesn't have very much in the way of faith. People like your mother cling to ritual to cover your own doubts.

I have met Steve Benson on more than one occasion personally. We're not close personal friends (I live on the other side of the country) but we had a couple of very cordial conversations. I believe he's taken to describing himself as an "ex-Mormon" recently, but he's a Mormon nonetheless.

I have not met Paul Toscano, but I have met Margaret Toscano personally. People like your mother had her excommunicated simply for publishing an article which did not conform to the specific ideas of God that the brethren promote. I was about your age, a student at the University of Utah, when this happened.

I have never attempted to manipulate anyone with words. I have been very honest about my doubts. There are thousands of us inside and outside the church right now. We know what kind of people you are, and this is the reason that you don't get to know who we are. You understand that, right? We don't want our children harassed or assaulted. We don't want people to tell our neighbors the things that you and your mother are telling people on this forum...references to drugs, mental illness, crime. It's unpleasant, and rather than fight you, we choose to keep our distance from people like you. We let you have your beliefs, and we have our doubts quietly.

My birthright is the same as yours. I was born a Mormon, into a Mormon family. We disagree, but that doesn't make either of us less Mormons. Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan don't agree on much of anything, but they never tried to tell one another that either was not an Irish American. Mike Tyson and Buster Douglas traded insults, but neither was silly enough to tell the other he wasn't an African-American. I see Muslims argue, and I've seen Muslims express skepticism, but when this happens it is not common to see one call the other an "anti-Muslim".

When you examine your reaction, and the reaction of your mother, and you compare it to the reactions of other social and religious groups, it doesn't seem rational. So far, your mother has implied that I am involved in drugs and pornography, without any evidence. You and she are now implying that I am mentally ill.

There are groups that indulge in such behaviors. They're called cults. They're not religions. When viewed in that context, you and your mother are not helping the image of the church. You are destroying it. In a very real, tangible way, you are the anti-Mormons. By your fruits, you are known.

Best Regards,

Yishmael

Originally posted by sbananamarie11

So do you "secular mormons" have regular meetings? or do you just spit out claims of "being mormons" without the doctrines to support yourselves?

And what issues are you supposedly talking about... the name of the forum is to discuss your differences... isn't that what I am doing? or did you over look that?

And these references mean nothing to me... I've never heard of them... so I looked them up...

1st Steve Benson never once claimed he was a secular mormon....

and 2nd neither did Paul Toscano or his wife ever claim they were "secular mormons" and I quote "Toscano has stated that he lost his faith and said he feels remorse only for being so angry at the LDS Church." They write books... not articles.

And what is this birthright you speak of... is it the birthright to manipulate words and doctrines at your wim to suit your fancy?

And no you won't find the "church of sbananamarie11" because that doesn't exist. Sbananamarie11 knows what church she belongs to and doesn't have to make one up.

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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:14am
Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters

LOL well if the shoe fits...


I'm glad that you've given such a candid display of the shaming that goes on in Mormon culture. To recap, earlier you implied that I might be involved with both illicit narcotics and pornography. Tonight you have taken to pronouncing some sort of diagnosis of mental illness.

The Muslims are likely pretty interested in this facet of Mormon social behavior. I can attest to the fact that it is very common in our tradition (particularly among people in Janet's generation) to rely upon personal attacks, libel and slander whenever a Mormon is faced with troubling historical or theological evidence that their beliefs might not be perfectly accurate.

This is common in many fringe groups. Scientology is a good example. It does not seem common among Muslims (except perhaps for the most extreme and unpleasant variety).
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jamilahz  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:31am
Originally posted by Janet Waters

LOL well if the shoe fits...


I think I am seeing your true colors now. 
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 12:59am
Don't you just love that song....I see your true colors shin'in thru.  A faux Mormon can fool some of the people some of the time....but he can't fool a real one.

Originally posted by Janet Waters

LOL well if the shoe fits...


Originally posted by yishmael

I'm glad that you've given such a candid display of the shaming that goes on in Mormon culture. To recap, earlier you implied that I might be involved with both illicit narcotics and pornography. Tonight you have taken to pronouncing some sort of diagnosis of mental illness.


I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.  This was my quote:


Originally posted by Janet Waters

Y
ou are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


You sure do like to twist words and their meanings to suit yourself don't you?  Untwist your mind and you might get it straight next time.  Take a little truth.....and twist it.....and twist it....with the intention to deceive....nice touch there.

I could go back and re-post each quote that you have twisted.  But its not worth the time for you contradict your own words and don't seem to recognize that.....so why bother?


Originally posted by yishmael

The Muslims are likely pretty interested in this facet of Mormon social behavior.


So are you now the poster child for Muslims and what they are interested in?  Make up your mind who you are and what one thing you think.  Don't speak for other people.


Originally posted by yishmael

I can attest to the fact that it is very common in our tradition (particularly among people in Janet's generation) to rely upon personal attacks, libel and slander whenever a Mormon is faced with troubling historical or theological evidence that their beliefs might not be perfectly accurate.


Honey.....you have made it clear that WE don't have a "common tradition."  So speak for yourself and your own traditions.  Remember you are the atheist and I am the Mormon here.

My generation....what is that suppose to mean?  Was that suppose to be an insult?  ouch!!

How is it, that anyone could think that your beliefs are perfectly accurate.....when you contradict those beliefs in every other paragraph?  You claim that you are an atheist then next paragraph you are a Mormon.  You use all the anti-mormon stuff to dispute Mormon Doctrine and then you are a "secular mormon" who has the same "traditions" but don't reveal who you are in public around Mormons for fear of rejection.  Then you will even admit that you are confused then you say that it is everyone else who is confused.  Get a grip....you are either confused or not.  Make up your mind.  But don't speak for what others believe as though you are them....you are you.

I've been overly patient with you.  But no more.   Maybe you should  rewrite that high school essay and use yourself and your own doctrines for the purpose of psychoanalyzing (instead of doing to others that you don't even know).

Originally posted by yishmael

This is common in many fringe groups. Scientology is a good example. It does not seem common among Muslims (except perhaps for the most extreme and unpleasant variety).


Quit speaking for other people and their beliefs.  And....by the way quit stereo typing people that you don't know into one person.  You sure don't have a problem grouping yourself into just one person.




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sbananamarie11  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:03am
Obviously I am not a teenager... and I have been on and off this site for 4 years now, held my tongue, for the purpose of familiarizing myself with the beliefs of others so that I can become a more informed person. Not until I have seen your recent posts did I become irritated enough to say anything. I'm irritated b/c you are the type of people that give the church a bad name. You go around confessing that you are a mormon but don't believe in what the mormons believe to be true. Where I grew up there weren't a lot of members and lines were clearly defined.... you were either for or against... plain and simple. Not until I was in college did I come to the realization that in other parts of the country it was not the same. People felt like they had to all be "Molly Mormons" and "appear" to be like everybody else... they didn't know how to think for themselves and to be who they really were. Gray areas were added into the mix. I know who I am and I'm not ashamed to have to pretend like you and so many others are. Stop hiding behind your excuses and be a man. If you don't believe then that's your problem... and then that would mean you aren't a "mormon". There are many people who have high standards and a moral conscience that doesn't mean they are mormon by association. The very same could be said about you. Just b/c you claim to be mormon doesn't mean you are a believer... it's just a title to hide behind b/c you don't have the guts to stand up and say you are what you are.

Race and a religious belief are two different inheritances. You can choose to be a mormon or a catholic or a baptist... but you can't suddenly choose to be white or black or hispanic. It doesn't work that way.

And how do you see that you are helping the image of the church since you say that I am hurting it?  Do you feel that b/c you are being refreshingly honest on here instead of in your life you are helping anyone?

It doesn't seem "rational" to be something your not.

The whole idea of a "secular" mormonism  just doesn't make any sense... what's the point?
Shanna
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yishmael  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 1:56am
Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters



I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.


Here's what you wrote:

You are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


Remember: I never framed you for a liar.

Have a good night,

Yishmael
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Janet Waters  
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bullet Posted: 23 April 2008 at 2:05am
Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Janet,

Originally posted by Janet Waters



I did not say or imply that you were involved with narcotics and pronography.


Here's what you wrote:

You are really grasping here.....

I have a copy of the Qur'an too... so what?  I don't have a problem with people being well informed with the finer things of life.  It sounds like you've been consuming anti- crap.  That stuff can really mess with a person's perception of reality....just like drug abuse or pornography.


Remember: I never framed you for a liar.

Have a good night,

Yishmael


You love to throw in those fighting words....then frame them softly as though you are the victim.....and you need sympathy. 
You are one or the other....but not both at the same time.  Which thing I know is very confusing to you.

Before you re-read my quote again.....take off the victim glasses so you can see what is really there.










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