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InterReligious Dialogue
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

The Angel Gabriel is considered God's envoy who delivers revelation to the prophets of mankind. He is a messenger, and obeying God's will. But that doesn't mean he is just an "archetype" or "emanation."

For example, Muslims have an authentic and well-known story of the angel Gabriel visiting Muhammad among his companions. He sits in front of Muhammad and asks him some questions about Islam. Later Muhammad asks his companions about this man, if they knew who he was, and he tells them that it was the Angel Gabriel, sent to teach them their religion. We also have occasions of Gabriel greeting Muhammad's wife Khadeejah (greeting her with peace, I think) and promising her a house of pearls in Paradise.


I'll tell you what spawned this question.

As I've been doing my work today I've been pondering the Muslim interpretation of Satan/Iblis. G-d told the angels to bow down to Adam, and they couldn't say no. Iblis is apparently a djinn, who loved G-d too much to obey his command, and refused to bow to anyone but G-d. His punishment was to be outside the presence of He whom Iblis loved above all others: G-d Himself.

Aside from being a touching story (which I think is much more appealing than the devil story I grew up with) it illustrated the differences between angels and other creations.

I guess what you're saying is that angels are separate creations, but that they have a limited freedom to do what they want, exclusive of some specific boundaries?

Thanks again for the response.
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 6:22pm
HIJACK
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 6:24pm
Sorry. I didn't mean to hijack. I'm honestly curious as to the comparison. We seem to mean different things when we contemplate angels, the Holy Spirit, etc.

The similarities exist on the surface, but the underlying structure is different. That aside, I'll start a new conversation on this when I get a chance, and I appreciate the answers I've been given. They have indeed been useful.
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 7:00pm
salam yishmael,

i am not sure where you got the idea that satan refused to bow down to adam out of love of allah. the quranic narrative is as follows:

quran (007:012-013)
[ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

in the islamic understanding, love of allah demands that we fear doing anything that earns his displeasure. insinuating that he failed to prostrate to adam due to love of allah! subhallah!
wherever did you hear that from?
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Misbah  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Misbah Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by Traveller

They all have men and women followers.



Heehee...

(Sorry Wahaj)


"Don’t be so humble - you ain't that great."
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 7:38pm
There is only one "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," which has been nicknamed "The Mormon Church."  Other people trying to mislead and confuse, use the term Mormon to fit their own chosen objectives and beliefs.  But don't be fooled into thinking that these entities are similar or connected in any way.

Mormon Doctrine teaches that the Angel Gabriel is the same being as Noah.  How do we know that?  Because the Angel Gabriel administered to the Prophet Joseph Smith and this was revealed to him.  Up until that time, this knowledge had not been revealed or else this information had been lost.  Currently anyone who has come to this conclusion, received it through the teachings of Joseph Smith and have included it in their own belief system.


My point in stating this, was to show that The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) is not Gabriel; but Gabriel is a holy spirit.  Thus validating both beliefs from Islam and Christianity.

I in no way was trying cause other people to hijack this thread by my comment....either in defending or opposing this doctrine.






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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by khany

salam yishmael,

i am not sure where you got the idea that satan refused to bow down to adam out of love of allah. the quranic narrative is as follows:

quran (007:012-013)
[ Allah ] said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I commanded you?" [Satan] said, "I am better than him. You created me from fire and created him from clay."
[ Allah ] said, "Descend from Paradise, for it is not for you to be arrogant therein. So get out; indeed, you are of the debased.

in the islamic understanding, love of allah demands that we fear doing anything that earns his displeasure. insinuating that he failed to prostrate to adam due to love of allah! subhallah!
wherever did you hear that from?


This version by khany....would be in better keeping with Mormon doctrine.  Michael the Arch-Angel's (Adam's) physical body was created from the dust of paradise (paradisaical element of the terrestrial order) before the fall (after the fall----it caused Adam's body to change-fall from a immortal terrestrial order to a mortal telestial order). 

After Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden....Adam was placed as a lord (responsible overseer) over the Garden of Eden......Satan claimed that he was the Lord.....that the earth was his inheritance where he could act as he saw fit.  This event happened after the war that took place in heaven, waged between Jehovah and Lucifer.  Michael the Arch-Angel (Adam before his physical creation) was the great general under Jehovah "who fought against the dragon" (Lucifer/Satan).






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waheed1  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote waheed1 Replybullet Posted: 25 April 2008 at 8:26pm
Originally posted by yishmael

Hi Brother Waheed,

Originally posted by waheed1



I'm afraid I don't understand your statement here. Gabriel is sometimes called "the holy spirit" in Islam, and in Christendom the Holy spirit is seen as the third in the Trinity.

All I meant was that I was not commenting on which appearance Gabriel comes through, that of a dove, or a ghost, or of a human form.


As I understand Islamic theology, Jibril/Gabriel is an angel, created of energy, and as such he has no free will. This would differentiate Jibril from a djinn, which is created from fire, and a human being, created from earth; both of which do have a will apart from G-d.

With this foundation in mind, it might help Mormons and others understand why Jibril is called the Holy Spirit by Muslims. As a being which can only do the will of G-d, it might be fair to say that this being is an emanation or projection of G-d, rather than a separate entity.

Mormons have a very different idea about what we call the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith inaugurated an idea that we all existed as uncreated intelligences which first went through a process of gaining a spiritual body, and are here to gain a physical body. It is unclear to Mormons as to whether the Holy Ghost has yet to achieve a physical body, or whether s/he (many Mormons feel that the Holy Ghost is a feminine entity, but this is likewise uncertain) has voluntarily shed his/her physical body to play the part s/he currently plays; but, it is certain to Mormons that the Holy Ghost is a separate, distinct entity all his/her own.

In the Islamic theology, it seems as though Jibril might be thought of as an archetype or an emanation, rather than a character, in that he might be seen as a specific expression of G-d which reveals essential truths to humanity, rather than a character with a personality.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken on any of this. I'm sure I probably am, as I'm just beginning to understand the underlying structure of Islamic theological thought.


Dear Br Yishmael,

Thanks for the explanation. This is ironic because I was actually attempting to avoid discussing the nature of the angel, but rather simply making a reply to a question/comment about Gabriel.  It seemed someone was offended by what I said about Gabriel. I was unsure, but I see it has generated a great deal of discussion.

The Qur'an does not go into alot of detail about Angels, or Gabriel for that matter. It is true that the assertion is that the angels nature is that of light [more details are in the Hadeeth literature], whereas Satan is seen as a Jinn, some form of life originating from fire or firery nature [this is in many places in the Qur'an].

Aviatrix's explanation was a very good one. Gabriel is the one who was the bringer of revelation to Muhammad, may peace be upon him. There are traditions, which some reject BTW, which has Gabriel coming to the Prophet in human form, asking a variety of questions about Faith, goodness, and other subjects, as a means of teaching the Prophet's followers. In general, we believe that angels can come in whatever form as ordered by God, be it in a human body or something else. In all honesty, however, Muslims don't really focus on it too much, as it's mostly beyond our immediate experience and is not that necessary in terms of having belief in God and acting according to that belief.

The Qur'an says again and again that God knows best what is in the heavens and the earth, so it may be prudent to just leave it at that. Just my view.

Regards,
S.Waheed
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:50am
can i request that a moderator kindly ship the satan/adam/angel topic into a new thread by itself?
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Sagefrakrobatik  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sagefrakrobatik Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 12:37pm

 

  Hinduism

Concept of God according to Hindu Scriptures:

 

We can gain a better understanding of the concept of God in Hinduism by analysing Hindu scriptures.

BHAGAVAD GITA

The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagavad Gita.

Consider the following verse from the Gita:

"Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures."
                   [Bhagavad Gita 7:20]

The Gita states that people who are materialistic worship demigods i.e. ‘gods’ besides the True God.

 


UPANISHADS:

The Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus.

The following verses from the Upanishads refer to the Concept of God:

         i.            "Ekam evadvitiyam"
"He is One only without a second."
        [Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]
1

       ii.            "Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
         [Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]
2

      iii.            "Na tasya pratima asti"
"There is no likeness of Him."
        [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]
3

      iv.            The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

"Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam."

"His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye."
        [Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]
4

Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah."
"Of Him there are neither parents nor lord."
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2
 
Why eat vegetarians when you could eat meat eaters. They have more protein.
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jana.z  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jana.z Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 1:21pm
sage i think that we have a tendancy when comparing religions to compare the three major abrahamic religions. 
 
of course in a real classroom setting to compare religions, we would have to include everything whether we agree with them or not.
 
 
i really dont know much about hinduism at all to be honest. 
And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

http://myimmatureviewpoint.blogspot.com/
http://solomuslimah.blogspot.com/
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 2:03pm
Salaam Brother Waheed,

Thanks for your comments. I just have to respond in this thread one more time.

Originally posted by waheed1


The Qur'an says again and again that God knows best what is in the heavens and the earth, so it may be prudent to just leave it at that. Just my view.

Regards,
S.Waheed


You've touched on a great similarity between all religions here. Most religions appeal to people because they contain mystery.

And G-d knows best...

Yishmael
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Sagefrakrobatik  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Sagefrakrobatik Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by jana.z

sage i think that we have a tendancy when comparing religions to compare the three major abrahamic religions. 
 
of course in a real classroom setting to compare religions, we would have to include everything whether we agree with them or not.
 
 
i really dont know much about hinduism at all to be honest. 
 
I think we do this because of politics; namely the war on terror, and the state of Israel.
Why eat vegetarians when you could eat meat eaters. They have more protein.
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