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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Topic: What would offend God most ? (hypothetically)
    Posted: 26 April 2008 at 7:02pm
 
 I mean no offense by the suggestions below. But essentially this is the vice verca in each of our respective beliefs about the other. So think of it as more keeping it brief but blunt.
 
What would be more offensive to God hypothetically speaking.
 
  If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself ? 
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:07pm
Well this is tough to explain, but I think that if we continue to worship the One True God with NO partners we are ok. 

Also the way you put this is kind of funny actually.  Its like when you want someone to choose what you want them too  you say 'would you like to go to the happy fun place (happy voice)? or the mean bad place (sad voice)?'

According to Islam one of the worst sins you can commit is shirk - associating partners with Allah. 
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:12pm
Well... how would you have phrased it...? serious not rhetorical,   Whats inaccurate about what i've said ?
 
"According to Islam one of the worst sins you can commit is shirk - associating partners with Allah. "
 
 I'm thinking of the concequences of,  if what one believe's in is false though ? what  carries the greater concequence or offence to God, so i'm speaking outside scripture if you like. Equally  if a Christian were to deny the Triune God  from being a believer to a denier and does so conciously denying the gospel as truth, carries great sin becoming a heretic. But what if this were false ? So i'm looking at the consequence of what would be more offensive to "A" God who we both agree is a "loving" and "compassionate" God who does not surely punish good hearted people who through honest ignorance mis-understood or were decieved about God's intention by others, and yet provides for them a place in hell. On that we both agree, for Islam does also teach that some People of the Book reach Paradise .
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:22pm
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound bad... its not wrong, just you made the Christian option sound all happy and good and the Muslim one sound kind of crudy...

f one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?

Could also be said:

If one wrongly denied that he had a son, attributing all power and might only to God and not attributing human attributes to him.


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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by Damo808

If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself ? 
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
How about
 
If one wrongly believed that God had a son, attributing human qualities to the One Divine who had commanded worship of God alone without partners?
 
Or if one wrongly denied that God had a son, adhereing instead to the message which God sent from the beginning of time telling mankind to worship God alone without any partners?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound bad... its not wrong, just you made the Christian option sound all happy and good and the Muslim one sound kind of crudy...

f one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?

Could also be said:

If one wrongly denied that he had a son, attributing all power and might only to God and not attributing human attributes to him.


 
 I Really do see your point here Jamilahz .. But if on the other hand , when Jesus finally returns as again we both believe.. 
 
 Which would be the greater offence ? To have denied He was God's Son before Him and In His Father's presence .
 
 Or to have attributed to Him the title God Son of the Almighty falsely, him being no more than a mortal human. Under the watchfull eye of Allah ?
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:58pm
"telling mankind to worship God alone without any partners?"
 
 Amy... other partners really only means without any helpers, as in other lesser gods or demi gods, like the ancient greeks believed regarding their pluralistic idea of many gods some more powefull than others. When God says, I Am alone. means there is only One God. Christians believe Jesus is OF the Father , as is the Spirit. Jesus in the Gospel's is God's litteral word, which is of God the Father. The Spirit Of God is Of the Father AND the Son. Therefore, is the Word of God anything less than Divine ? Or the litteral Spirit of God something below God ? Thats the Christian perspective ofcourse.I don't want to argue about the nature of God that's still kickin on probably three other current threads already.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Originally posted by Damo808

If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself ? 
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
How about
 
If one wrongly believed that God had a son, attributing human qualities to the One Divine who had commanded worship of God alone without partners?
 
Or if one wrongly denied that God had a son, adhereing instead to the message which God sent from the beginning of time telling mankind to worship God alone without any partners?


You said it much better than I did!
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 26 April 2008 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by jamilahz

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound bad... its not wrong, just you made the Christian option sound all happy and good and the Muslim one sound kind of crudy...

f one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?

Could also be said:

If one wrongly denied that he had a son, attributing all power and might only to God and not attributing human attributes to him.


 
 I Really do see your point here Jamilahz .. But if on the other hand , when Jesus finally returns as again we both believe.. 
 
 Which would be the greater offence ? To have denied He was God's Son before Him and In His Father's presence .
 
 Or to have attributed to Him the title God Son of the Almighty falsely, him being no more than a mortal human. Under the watchfull eye of Allah ?


You know, I don't really know.  I'm as sure of my belief as you are of yours.  I know that Allah did not have a son or a partner.  But you feel differently.  only Allah knows.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 1:51am

Damo, I'm sorry but I think that the question is just sort of fundamentally flawed, about whether you want to believe God has a son, or if you don't believe that. Muslims don't really look at the world that way.

What Muslims do see is that God is Eternal, and Changeless, and that human nature and fundamental human needs stay the same. and there should only be one true religion coming from the One, Same God.
 
So what doesn't make sense is that after thousands of years of one religion... that it would change...
 
See?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 2:46am
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Damo, I'm sorry but I think that the question is just sort of fundamentally flawed, about whether you want to believe God has a son, or if you don't believe that. Muslims don't really look at the world that way.

What Muslims do see is that God is Eternal, and Changeless, and that human nature and fundamental human needs stay the same. and there should only be one true religion coming from the One, Same God.
 
So what doesn't make sense is that after thousands of years of one religion... that it would change...
 
See?
 
I admit the question is fundamentaly flawed, which is why i'm asking it from a hypothetical point of view. Albeit  the way tye question is phrased could be debated for eons in here. Christians don't view the world that way either . But i can still detach myself enougn to ponder on most things. 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Nura Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:24am
Well, I don't think God could be offended by anything, because He is above anything we say.
 
But to answer your question, I would say: if you adhore Jesus, you are committing a sin from the Islamic point of view.
From the Christian point of view, if you don't adhore Jesus as God's son, who will going to be offended? Jesus or God?
Spare me the political events and power struggles, as the whole earth is my homeland and all men are my fellow countrymen. K.Gibran
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote eldon Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:27am
Originally posted by Damo808

 
 
 
  If wrongly one believed that God had a Son, which he adored so much He willingly set Him above all others, even equal to Himself
 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpret those words as meaning "God adored Jesus so much that He made Jesus equal to Himself" !
 
As Nura pointed out though, only God is worthy of adoration.
 
Jesus adored the Father, whom he called "my God and your God", but there is no record in the Bible of the Father adoring Jesus.
 
 Or If one wrongly denied He had a Son, stripping him of divinity, placing him lower in status of the one who preached this message who was not sent by God ?
 
The necessity in this second case is for one to rightly recognize what the term "Son of God" means, in order to avoid denigrating the character of the Most High by implying that He begets children, as so many pagan gods are alleged to have done, i.e. implying that He carnally impregnates women.
 
As a title of honor, from the Jewish historical perspective, there is no problem with the term Son of God; however, in addressing the pagan perspective of most people in the world, it is imperative to emphasize that Allah does not beget children as their gods are alleged to have done.
 
The Quran is addressed to all the people of the world, not just to those with a Jewish or Christian perspective, and therefore lays the proper emphasis on denying physical begetting on Allah's part, though it does acknowledge both the honored status of Jesus and his miraculous conception. 
 
Furthermore, since the Quran portrays Allah as Cherisher and Sustainer of the Worlds, it amplifies and aligns with the title of Father given Him in the NT to show His Care for all Creation.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith.3:139

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 1:20pm
Here's another thought for you, Damo. If a person were to raise Jesus equal to God and worship Jesus, then he would be committing the worst sin in Islam, a sin that God even says He doesn't forgive.
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