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Message Icon Topic: What would offend God most ? (hypothetically) Post Reply Post New Topic
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scruggnut  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote scruggnut Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2008 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix

Here's another thought for you, Damo. If a person were to raise Jesus equal to God and worship Jesus, then he would be committing the worst sin in Islam, a sin that God even says He doesn't forgive.
If i can forgive someone for such a thing, and god cannot...would that not make me more forgiving than him; at least in this circumstance?
Waiting an eternity for an apology from one who never apologizes but always demands one.
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 3:26am
Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Bill2702

Hi Damo,
 
For the purpose of this discussion the answer is no. It depends on how you define religious.
 
 
  Well i could understand your perspective had you been Muslim.
 But as a Christian, i believe if God is a God of compassion and mercy, these traits suggest to me that there is a part of God in us rather than a part of us in God. Other traits such as anger belong to God as well as humans. It is human dis-obedience which causes God to be angry. Anger in the human sense is as much an emotional term as happyness. We also see that there are times when God is angry , he can me "moved" to re-consider and show a more merciful side. This is true in Judges 2 :12-19.
 This verse demonstrates that God does have what may be considered emotion. Again i believe that human concepts such as emotion, concsience etc are things embodied in us which are also in God also. I don't think this hints towards any kind of weakness, but demonstrates that He did infact create us in a way that is reflective of Himself IMO. Which is why when i say offend God, i don't suggest God is struggling to come to terms emotionaly with what man does but, can empathise with humanity enough to akcnowlege offence.
 
Hi,
 
Does that not conflict with the concept of the perfection of God? Also you say that God can be moved to show mercy. Would that not inidicate that God is capable of doubting his own judgment?
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Originally posted by Damo808

Originally posted by Bill2702

Hi Damo,
 
For the purpose of this discussion the answer is no. It depends on how you define religious.
 
 
  Well i could understand your perspective had you been Muslim.
 But as a Christian, i believe if God is a God of compassion and mercy, these traits suggest to me that there is a part of God in us rather than a part of us in God. Other traits such as anger belong to God as well as humans. It is human dis-obedience which causes God to be angry. Anger in the human sense is as much an emotional term as happyness. We also see that there are times when God is angry , he can me "moved" to re-consider and show a more merciful side. This is true in Judges 2 :12-19.
 This verse demonstrates that God does have what may be considered emotion. Again i believe that human concepts such as emotion, concsience etc are things embodied in us which are also in God also. I don't think this hints towards any kind of weakness, but demonstrates that He did infact create us in a way that is reflective of Himself IMO. Which is why when i say offend God, i don't suggest God is struggling to come to terms emotionaly with what man does but, can empathise with humanity enough to akcnowlege offence.
 
Hi,
 
Does that not conflict with the concept of the perfection of God? Also you say that God can be moved to show mercy. Would that not inidicate that God is capable of doubting his own judgment?
 
 
 I can't see why any of what i said makes God imperfect at all, my view of God is a God who can sympathise with mankind, and cherishes mankind, with all his imperfections. Not a God who is intolerant of that which is less than Divine.
 As for doubting His own judgement. Its not that He doubts his judgement, what is judged by Him is ultimately Just. But he can be moved towards showing mercy when mankind recognise their error, and prays for forgiveness.


Edited by Damo808 - 30 April 2008 at 12:33pm
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 1:48pm
Well a perfect God would never need to reconsider a decision having (perfectly) judged in the first instance. Being all knowing God would know of the repentence and would judge according to the overall picture of a human's existence, not continually judge at every turn of events. Why be offended when you know the person will make it right in a few days (or years). Therefore the concept of being moved to be merciful is null and void. If he is all knowing then he knows your judgment before you are born. If he changes his mind in a way that alters his knowledge of the future then he is not all knowing. If he knows he will change his mind and what that change will mean then he is hasn't been moved. We may see it that way but He wouldn't.
 
I'm going to lie down now cuz my head hurts.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Islamway Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

You might want to think a bit about what you just said Islamway.
 
What do you mean?
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jana.z  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jana.z Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 2:57pm
[QUOTE=Islamway] there are many gods out there who have different attributes than the Abrahamic God.
 /QUOTE]
 
 
i think this is what he meant IW.
And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2008 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Well a perfect God would never need to reconsider a decision having (perfectly) judged in the first instance. Being all knowing God would know of the repentence and would judge according to the overall picture of a human's existence, not continually judge at every turn of events. Why be offended when you know the person will make it right in a few days (or years). Therefore the concept of being moved to be merciful is null and void. If he is all knowing then he knows your judgment before you are born. If he changes his mind in a way that alters his knowledge of the future then he is not all knowing. If he knows he will change his mind and what that change will mean then he is hasn't been moved. We may see it that way but He wouldn't.
 
I'm going to lie down now cuz my head hurts.
 
 
  I know what your saying... but your idea of a perfect God is different from mine. God is perfect... When God asks us to repent, do you think he wants us to do an action which then just qualifies you to be forgiven ? No, repentance must be from the heart. He is our Father after all. Your interpretation of God to me conveys a compassion-less God. To change his mind is His will.  I know what your mean about the paradox of all knowing. But God is also infinately merciful we are told. But if everyones inperfect then who goes to hell. Surely God judges us on circumstance regarding how we come into the world as individuals and from how we are raised which shapes us as moral human beings .One man's ignorant bliss  is another man's envy. Ehch is judged by their heart ultimately.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 1:40pm
Another paradox.
 
Why would an infinitely merciful God need or want a Hell? Infinite is one step further than always so nobody is going to hell.
 
 
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Another paradox.
 
Why would an infinitely merciful God need or want a Hell? Infinite is one step further than always so nobody is going to hell.
 
 
 
 No... not a paradox. Some people commit henious acts in full knowledge of what they are doing in regards to sin, are brought up knowing right from wrong and basically have no excuses. Yet the concequence of what they do has absolutely no bearing on them.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 1:03pm
Therefore there is a limit to the mercy of God (rightly or wrongly) so His
mercy is not infinite.
 
I would question how you know how "some people" are motivated. Defining that somone has sinned is one thing, knowing why is a very different thing.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 03 May 2008 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Bill2702

Therefore there is a limit to the mercy of God (rightly or wrongly) so His
mercy is not infinite.
 
I would question how you know how "some people" are motivated. Defining that somone has sinned is one thing, knowing why is a very different thing.
 
 
 Ok .. a classic example is St Paul, a devout Jew , who prior to his conversion  believed that his percecution of Christians was right in the sight of God. Hypothetically if he hadn't been converted he could have continued this percecution until his own death, but due to his ignorance been most likely have been forgiven by God. This is what i mean by infinately merciful. The most henious crimes can be commited by individuals who don't grasp the gravity of what they are doing, even from the Christian perspective , those who crucified Christ. However there are people out there who chose to do evil for evil's sake having full awareness of their sin  thats where the difference lies.
 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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