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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Topic: A Simple Question Part II
    Posted: 27 April 2008 at 6:10pm
 Ok as we are still trying to answer of god being 1+1+1=1 or 1+1+1=3.Here is another simple question popped into my mind

 If jesus is part of the trinity as a devine being ,a god in his own right .So what tingles my curiosity is Is Jesus an equal part of the trinity ,then how is he the son of god .Or is that jesus being the son of god is just as devine ,all powerfull ( all the sttributes on would give to god ).Meaning Jesus and God are equals and just like 2 god or co-equal gods .And if not that we cannot count jesus as 1 in the final equasion of 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1=1.which ever equasion you choose .

 So what is it Jesus and God are xerox copies of each other or jesus does not hold a 1/3 rd share in the trinity


We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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jana.z  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jana.z Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:10pm
DD,  this is getting complicated.  even looking back over my old catholic days, i find it hard to believe that i accepted the idea of the trinity readily. but thats what we are taught from day one and  its just not questioned.
 
 
so no matter how you ask it, there is no real answer.  jesus, pbuh, was not God, not the son of God.  you know and i know. so those questions can not be honestly answered.
And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:39pm
 This is not a "loaded question" ....I just want to get personal opinions on what each one believes it varies person to person
We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 7:53pm
Originally posted by desertdude

 Ok as we are still trying to answer of god being 1+1+1=1 or 1+1+1=3.Here is another simple question popped into my mind

 If jesus is part of the trinity as a devine being ,a god in his own right .So what tingles my curiosity is Is Jesus an equal part of the trinity ,then how is he the son of god .Or is that jesus being the son of god is just as devine ,all powerfull ( all the sttributes on would give to god ).Meaning Jesus and God are equals and just like 2 god or co-equal gods .And if not that we cannot count jesus as 1 in the final equasion of 1+1+1=3 or 1+1+1=1.which ever equasion you choose .

 So what is it Jesus and God are xerox copies of each other or jesus does not hold a 1/3 rd share in the trinity


 
 
 Hi DD...
 
  I don't think the concept is too hard to grasp.
   Divinity is Divinity. Divinity is atributable only to God and if it be that God is of this nature or of that nature then any argument regarding what is logical towards God's nature is irrelivent.
 So If the Divine nature of God is eternal then it also goes that He or any other part of Him - of His essence, is eternal, without beggining or end. If Jesus is the very essence of God, His son, who came into the world by the power of the Holy Spirit, Then being part of God by essence also makes Him Divine. To suggest otherwise is to suggest something less than Divine regarding God's essence.
 
Originally posted by jana.z

DD,  this is getting complicated.  even looking back over my old catholic days, i find it hard to believe that i accepted the idea of the trinity readily. but thats what we are taught from day one and  its just not questioned.
 
 
so no matter how you ask it, there is no real answer.  jesus, pbuh, was not God, not the son of God.  you know and i know. so those questions can not be honestly answered.
 
 Thankyou Janz.. but just for the sake at least of enlightening us feeble minded individuals who still hold to the faith which you found to be absurd.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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desertdude  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote desertdude Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 8:02pm
Ok so what your saying God and jesus are Equals ,,SO why is god the father and he the son ..It could just as easily be the other way round .Since god didnt create jesus ( He didnt right ? ) and vice versa .Since there both the same so why should it matter who hold the title Father or Son

We r not the conspiracy theorists on this issue.It seems 2 me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four airliners and hitting 75 % of their targets-that feels like a conspiracy theory.C.Sheen
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 8:23pm
Assalamu `alaikum DD.

I'd advise you to not worry about this too much, because Christians don't either. Although they're likely to disagree with us on the Trinity being an unfitting nature for God to have, no serious Christian is going to say that the Trinity is something that can be understood. It's a mystery, simple as that, and asking Christians to make sense out it would be like a Christian demanding that we explain what alif laam meem means (not the best analogy, but I hope you understand what I'm saying). For example here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about it:

The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason. Hence, to declare this to be no mystery would be a virtual denial of the canon in question. Moreover, our Lord's words, Matthew 11:27, "No one knoweth the Son, but the Father," seem to declare expressly that the plurality of Persons in the Godhead is a truth entirely beyond the scope of any created intellect. The Fathers supply many passages in which the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature is affirmed. St. Jerome says, in a well-known phrase: "The true profession of the mystery of the Trinity is to own that we do not comprehend it"

So Christians don't make any claims that the Trinity makes sense, they accept that it doesn't, so there isn't much to be achieved from pointing this out to them. If you want to ask them why a merciful God would make accepting a doctrine which doesn't even make sense a requirement for salvation from eternal damnation in Hellfire then you would be heading down a better path.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by jana.z

DD,  this is getting complicated.  even looking back over my old catholic days, i find it hard to believe that i accepted the idea of the trinity readily. but thats what we are taught from day one and  its just not questioned.
 
 
so no matter how you ask it, there is no real answer.  jesus, pbuh, was not God, not the son of God.  you know and i know. so those questions can not be honestly answered.
 
 The fullness the of Triune God, proceeds from the Father to the Son and the Holy Spirit. I can understand that this statement suggests that without the Father's will the Son nor the Spirit would exist. But when this relationship is based on an eternity without a biggining or a start then it concludes that the Three are equal and that everything of the Father is in them, being of His essence and exact likeness though entirely distinct individuals from Him with nothing of His nature being reserved from Them without beginning or end. 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 8:35pm
Originally posted by Kadaveri

Assalamu `alaikum DD.

I'd advise you to not worry about this too much, because Christians don't either. Although they're likely to disagree with us on the Trinity being an unfitting nature for God to have, no serious Christian is going to say that the Trinity is something that can be understood. It's a mystery, simple as that, and asking Christians to make sense out it would be like a Christian demanding that we explain what alif laam meem means (not the best analogy, but I hope you understand what I'm saying). For example here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about it:

The Vatican Council further defined that the Christian Faith contains mysteries strictly so called (can. 4). All theologians admit that the doctrine of the Trinity is of the number of these. Indeed, of all revealed truths this is the most impenetrable to reason. Hence, to declare this to be no mystery would be a virtual denial of the canon in question. Moreover, our Lord's words, Matthew 11:27, "No one knoweth the Son, but the Father," seem to declare expressly that the plurality of Persons in the Godhead is a truth entirely beyond the scope of any created intellect. The Fathers supply many passages in which the incomprehensibility of the Divine Nature is affirmed. St. Jerome says, in a well-known phrase: "The true profession of the mystery of the Trinity is to own that we do not comprehend it"

So Christians don't make any claims that the Trinity makes sense, they accept that it doesn't, so there isn't much to be achieved from pointing this out to them. If you want to ask them why a merciful God would make accepting a doctrine which doesn't even make sense a requirement for salvation from eternal damnation in Hellfire then you would be heading down a better path.
 
 
 I'd say that was a fair enough statement up until you said that the Christians accept that the Trinity doesn't make sense.Thats not what the statement said. They believe that it makes sense, but is beyond human bounds of understanding, and outwith logic, which by definition God is anyway
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Squeegie  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Squeegie Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 8:55pm
Why does everyone insist on making this such a complicated matter? God exists in a state which we mere mortals haven't the ability to fathom. He conceivably exists at every point in the universe at every instant of time in that universe at the same time. If he can effectively spread himself out, so to speak, like that and his essence not be diminished, why is it such a leap to think he can limit some portion of himself to our plane of existence so as to relate directly to us as one of us and still not limit the infinite nature he inherently possesses as God?
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jana.z  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jana.z Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by Damo808

[QUOTE=desertdude] 
 
 Thankyou Janz.. but just for the sake at least of enlightening us feeble minded individuals who still hold to the faith which you found to be absurd.
 
thanks for assuming that i think the idea is absurd. i dont and never did before. i dont think anyone is absurd for believing in what they believe.  i believed it for many many years and it was the last thing i held onto as a christian before i reverted to islam.
 
my entire family (brothers, sisters, mother, even my grown children) still hold to that idea and i have never put them down or thought to be absurb.
 
what you just said is why i try not to get involved in these types of issues.
And hold fast, all together to the rope of Allah and do not separate.”Âl’ Imran:103)

http://myimmatureviewpoint.blogspot.com/
http://solomuslimah.blogspot.com/
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:06pm
With all due respect Damo, I don't think there's any practical difference between believing something doesn't make sense, and believing something does make sense but that seeing the sense is beyond human capability. Either way we acknowledge that it's something which we cannot make sense out of.
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by jana.z

DD,  this is getting complicated.  even looking back over my old catholic days, i find it hard to believe that i accepted the idea of the trinity readily. but thats what we are taught from day one and  its just not questioned.
 
 
so no matter how you ask it, there is no real answer.  jesus, pbuh, was not God, not the son of God.  you know and i know.
 
 Perhaps i mis-read the above, you seem to suggest in the above that Catholics are brainwashed in schools to believe in the Trinity. The point is, culturaly in both Islam and Catholicism the faith starts in the home, well before school and well beyond. The parents who have grown up in the Catholic faith and of a Catholic education themselves are at liberty in the West to openly choose Islam freely if they so wish, without fear of manipulation or even perhaps intimidation from any clergy of my Church. What's more the catholic system of education in the Uk for one matches or  out performs in terms of grades well above that of any other education be it state or other faith statistically pound for pound. So its not as though the kids are being dumbed down beyond the point of reflecting on what they believe.
 You say you know God's nature. No-one can claim they know for certian  anything regarding God's nature. I can believe in something i.e. have faith in it fully to the point of zero doubt  but beyond that i can't say . I know God.
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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Damo808  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Damo808 Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 9:56pm
Originally posted by Kadaveri

With all due respect Damo, I don't think there's any practical difference between believing something doesn't make sense, and believing something does make sense but that seeing the sense is beyond human capability. Either way we acknowledge that it's something which we cannot make sense out of.
 
 Likewise Kad.... It doesn't make a lot of sense either to claim that we know beyond all doubt the nature of God . Especially when trying to balance the Divine with logic. Its in regard to God only  is the application of human logic a completely illogical argument, as i said earlier, God is illogical by definition. Logically . Ok.. kiddn , but you at least see what my point of view is right ? 
out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be the ruler in Israel: and his going forth is from the beginning, from the days of eternity. Micah 5:5
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jamilahz  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote jamilahz Replybullet Posted: 27 April 2008 at 10:25pm
Damo

Muslims say they understand the nature of God because he told us what his nature is was in the Qu'ran.  He is NOT like the creation.

Surah Al Iklas

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.


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www.theoneislam.com
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