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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Topic: Logical/Moral Dilemma #1
    Posted: 01 May 2008 at 4:53pm

A young man dies at age 27. His upbringing lacked even the most basic of the moral values of the average of society's norm. That is the fault of his family and those generally close to him.

We now know that these influences are key to the person we become.
 
Another man in the same situation regarding his upbringing lives to 90 and over that time changes gradually to become aware and repentent for his deeds.

 

How is time measured in terms of it's effect on the mercy of God?

 
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

A young man dies at age 27. His upbringing lacked even the most basic of the moral values of the average of society's norm. That is the fault of his family and those generally close to him.

We now know that these influences are key to the person we become.
 
Another man in the same situation regarding his upbringing lives to 90 and over that time changes gradually to become aware and repentent for his deeds.
How is time measured in terms of it's affect on the mercy of God?



If an individual was not taught what was right or wrong before the age of accountability (age 8) the sins that they commit are placed upon the parents.  After an individual reaches the age of accountability, they become accountable for their own actions.

I know that God is just and merciful and will take into account why we do the things that we do.  He is the only one, who can see what is written in our hearts.  If we don't know that something is wrong and do it...it is considered a "transgression."  In other words, that action broke a commandment, without the understanding and knowledge to make a better choice. 

If a person knows what is right and wrong and willfully choices the wrong....this thing is considered a "sin" in God's eyes.  To sin is to willfully rebell against God rejecting him.  What will matter in the end is what is in our heart....for we will be judged according to the condition of our heart.  The things that are in our heart cause the things that we do with our thoughts and therefore our hands and feet.



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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:50pm
Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?
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hamayoun  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote hamayoun Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 5:54pm
Allah is just.  He will judge according to a person's environment, age, etc.
May Allah give me patience, Ameen.

My blog: http://regularbaba.blogspot.com/
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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


Would you rather ascribe to the Original Sin theory....and believe that all babies are born as sinful before they have the ability to sin?

The age of accountablity happens when an individual reaches the maturity, in which they are accountable for their own actions.  If a person is more or less mature at that time, they receive the ability according to their natural growth.  (Those who are retarded and never reach the mental maturity of an eight year old, will not be accountable for their actions).

Gaining the ability to "know good from evil"....doesn't fit into the same category as  "worshiping God correctly."  A person has to be taught the true form of worship, whereas gaining the ability to know good from evil is gained through mental maturity (mental process/mental growth).

When Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil....their eyes became opened....and they gained the knowledge to differentiate between good and evil.


It is the same thing that happens to all children when they reach the years of accountability.....their eyes become opened...... and they have the power to see the difference....so therefore they are then accountable for their choices.





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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by hamayoun

Allah is just.  He will judge according to a person's environment, age, etc.


Very well put!
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:35pm

Paying the price starts with your first breath.

Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by Rachel25

Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


That would have been Joseph Smith.

http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/p/baptized_who.htm

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/68/27/#27

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Janet Waters  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Janet Waters Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by yishmael

That would have been Joseph Smith.


Well well now.....yishmael the "Anti-everything" is peeking over my shoulder and following me everywhere I go.  Here you are again....and again....and again.  It is someone else's turn to be harassed...




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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by Rachel25

Who said age 8 is the age of accountability?  You telling me God would put my 9 and 10 year old in hell if they didn't worship Him correctly?


Would you rather ascribe to the Original Sin theory....and believe that all babies are born as sinful before they have the ability to sin?

The age of accountablity happens when an individual reaches the maturity, in which they are accountable for their own actions.  If a person is more or less mature at that time, they receive the ability according to their natural growth.  (Those who are retarded and never reach the mental maturity of an eight year old, will not be accountable for their actions).

Gaining the ability to "know good from evil"....doesn't fit into the same category as  "worshiping God correctly."  A person has to be taught the true form of worship, whereas gaining the ability to know good from evil is gained through mental maturity (mental process/mental growth).

When Adam and Eve partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil....their eyes became opened....and they gained the knowledge to differentiate between good and evil.


It is the same thing that happens to all children when they reach the years of accountability.....their eyes become opened...... and they have the power to see the difference....so therefore they are then accountable for their choices.







Well, you're the one who said age 8.  And honestly, I believe all babies are born pure, innocent, and free from sin.  Even when I was Christian, I could not understand how people believed babies were sinful.
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yishmael  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote yishmael Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Janet Waters

Originally posted by yishmael

That would have been Joseph Smith.


Well well now.....yishmael the "Anti-everything" is peeking over my shoulder and following me everywhere I go.  Here you are again....and again....and again.  It is someone else's turn to be harassed...




Oh! Poor Janet! She's being "harassed".



As you might have noticed, my response wasn't directed at you. You might also notice that you're posting crypto-Mormonism on a public message board, directed at people who don't know the doctrine and aren't aware of it in toto. I'll continue to explain the details of the doctrines you're suggesting people adopt for as long as it amuses me to do so.

Hope this helps...

Yishmael
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khany  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote khany Replybullet Posted: 01 May 2008 at 9:40pm
hello Bill,

like brother Hamayoun said god is just. and he does not do the least injustice to anybody. the quran says:
(017:015)
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an messenger (to give warning).

nobody is punished for what is beyond their knowledge or ability. we are only judged for things in which we have a choice. it does not matter how many years one lives. it is not a simple calculus. god knows best who have been warned. it is sufficient for us (muslims) to know that god is just.
(023:062)
On no soul do We place a burden greater than it can bear: before Us is a record which clearly shows the truth: they will never be wronged.
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Bill2702  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 12:32pm
So on that basis the 27 year old will be forgiven because he was not responsible for his own upbringing?
Anything free is worth what you pay for it.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Guests Replybullet Posted: 02 May 2008 at 2:11pm
Good question.  On this basis, everyone should go to Heaven.  People who believe and have faith, believe and have faith.  This alone should be enough for people to be forgiven, people believe with their heart and soul, or don't believe at all and that's their own belief...  how can people be held accountable for their upbringing, environment, being brought up in the wrong faith, or their lack of beliefs?  Doesn't seem fair.  
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